Next generation of Dura-Ace Di2

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

Moderator: robbosmans

spdntrxi
Posts: 4454
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

my buddy has Force AXS.. it indeed is louder then my 9150/70 Dura Ace
2019 BMC TM01 Road UCI config 7.36kg

by Weenie


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Noctiluxx
Posts: 1276
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:17 pm
Location: Southern California

by Noctiluxx

rides4beer wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:20 pm
ipenguinking wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:16 am
One other thing I wish Shimano can improve is drivetrain noise. The 9150 on my own C60 is so noisy comparing to the SR12 on a friend's bike I've been borrowing. The DA9000 I had before is also noisy.
I've found the opposite, my r8000 and r7000 drivetrains are very quiet, while a friend's SRAM Force AXS is really noisy.
I agree. My gravel bike with Ultegra 8020 is quieter than DA 9150/9170 drivetrain on my road bikes. The Campy SR 12-spd on my De Rosa is near silent.
2018 Bianchi Oltre XR4, (Celeste Matt)
2018 De Rosa SK Pininfarina (Blu)
2019 Trek Madone SLR (Rage Red)
2019 Giant TCR Advanced SL (Chameleon Blue)
2019 Cervelo R5 Disk (Team Sunweb)
2019 Giant Revolt Advanced 0

Hexsense
Posts: 2210
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

Noctiluxx wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:55 pm
rides4beer wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:20 pm
ipenguinking wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:16 am
One other thing I wish Shimano can improve is drivetrain noise. The 9150 on my own C60 is so noisy comparing to the SR12 on a friend's bike I've been borrowing. The DA9000 I had before is also noisy.
I've found the opposite, my r8000 and r7000 drivetrains are very quiet, while a friend's SRAM Force AXS is really noisy.
I agree. My gravel bike with Ultegra 8020 is quieter than DA 9150/9170 drivetrain on my road bikes. The Campy SR 12-spd on my De Rosa is near silent.
Hollow chainring and deep carbon wheel/frame amplifying the noise? That can contribute a lot to noise on road bike which doesn't exist on gravel bike.

eins4eins
Posts: 266
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:49 am

by eins4eins

use the 12sp XTR chain on current Ultegra and Dura Ace drivetrain and it will become silent

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colagreek
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:11 am

by colagreek

eins4eins wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:03 am
use the 12sp XTR chain on current Ultegra and Dura Ace drivetrain and it will become silent
This works well?

rides4beer
Posts: 611
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:27 am
Location: SC

by rides4beer

eins4eins wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:03 am
use the 12sp XTR chain on current Ultegra and Dura Ace drivetrain and it will become silent
Interesting. My 8020 and 7020 setups are both pretty quiet with KMC chains, but I'm always open to any reduction in drivetrain noise. :thumbup:

Any issues running this chain with di2? Next bike will be 8070.

survivor
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:08 pm

by survivor

I am actually very pleased with the noise level of my Dura Ace 9150 Di2 setup. It is almost silent. I am using Absolute Black oval chain ring and KMC X11SL TI Nitride chain. I am also using the direct mount hanger and Kogel oversize pulley wheels for my Di2 rear derailleur. With all these combinations my initial expectation was that it is going to be loud. But I’m quite surprised by the noise level it achieved eventually. It took quite some time to optimize the noise level but with the +/-0.4mm step adjustment that Di2 allows and the display of setup details on Garmin computer, I’m able to fine tune the whole drivetrain to near silent.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 8309
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

KMC, YBN, PYC and Campy chains are 5.5mm wide while a Shimano, SRAM and Wippermann chains are 5.62mm wide. 12spd XTR chains are something like 5.25mm (not entirely sure) wide. I wouldn’t be surprised if the .12mm difference is already enough to get ride of most chatter on a well indexed drivetrain.

madik
Posts: 309
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:44 pm

by madik

I wish for a return of silver component design. Shimano is doing almost everything in alloy and steel so silver chrome design still makes sense as it will look perfect. Sram kind of went this way with the Red 12s crankset anyway. Not that Shimano is trying to copy anyone :)
Personally still using 9000 groupset with Ultegra disc shifters and calipers and my Ultimate in stealth black is quite a looker with the groupset.
Functionality > Performance > Weight

Ritxis
Posts: 850
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

madik wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:52 am
I wish for a return of silver component design. Shimano is doing almost everything in alloy and steel so silver chrome design still makes sense as it will look perfect. Sram kind of went this way with the Red 12s crankset anyway. Not that Shimano is trying to copy anyone :)
Personally still using 9000 groupset with Ultegra disc shifters and calipers and my Ultimate in stealth black is quite a looker with the groupset.


Black/silver look of DA 9000 ist beautiful

eins4eins
Posts: 266
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:49 am

by eins4eins

rides4beer wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:16 pm
eins4eins wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:03 am
use the 12sp XTR chain on current Ultegra and Dura Ace drivetrain and it will become silent
Interesting. My 8020 and 7020 setups are both pretty quiet with KMC chains, but I'm always open to any reduction in drivetrain noise. :thumbup:

Any issues running this chain with di2? Next bike will be 8070.
I use it with di2. Works perfect.

At bike24.com its also listed as 11-/12sp compatible.

https://www.bike24.de/p1271583.html

pmprego
Posts: 1551
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

borist wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:37 pm
CyclingTips released a podcast that is largely about current/future tech, but there are a few minutes of next gen DA discussion. No real news, but interesting points:

- Shimano are focusing on perfecting Disc Brakes, rather than shifting. Their view is that the shifting has less to gain than disc brakes, so any big updates will likely focus on discs and the shifting will not see major updates.
- From a business perspective, Shimano are likely focussing more on e-bikes given this is the largest market for them. The enthusiast market is well developed, and they are likely to gain more by allocating dev/eng resources to e-bikes and other emerging products.

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/01/nerd-al ... he-future/
From a business perspetive this makes much more sense. e-bikes is where the new profit is. As for disc brakes, it's my opinion that the main reason holding back rim-brakes lovers to make the jump is related to weight. And the way to make disc groupsets weight competitive is to reduce weight on the calipers.

The only reason for sram to go 10t was not efficiency (which is a huge loss) but weight. With a 10t they could shave weight on a smaller crankset and then market the groupset as not being that heavy. However, the 10t is really not a good choice - see the pro teams using 53/54t front rings just to avoid using the 10t sprocket.

As for my cents, and knowing that I currently ride sram etap, I'll gladly jump to shimano if they don't go blind witht the 10t and especially find a new way to build the groupset and make it closer to the rim-brake weights. Decreasing the current weight penalty would boost dics brakes bikes and it would be a comparative advantage over the competition.

Nefarious86
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Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 4:57 am

by Nefarious86

Went to a 10 to reduce weight... With a heavier rear mech...

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Ritxis
Posts: 850
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

pmprego wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:50 am
borist wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:37 pm
CyclingTips released a podcast that is largely about current/future tech, but there are a few minutes of next gen DA discussion. No real news, but interesting points:

- Shimano are focusing on perfecting Disc Brakes, rather than shifting. Their view is that the shifting has less to gain than disc brakes, so any big updates will likely focus on discs and the shifting will not see major updates.
- From a business perspective, Shimano are likely focussing more on e-bikes given this is the largest market for them. The enthusiast market is well developed, and they are likely to gain more by allocating dev/eng resources to e-bikes and other emerging products.

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/01/nerd-al ... he-future/
From a business perspetive this makes much more sense. e-bikes is where the new profit is. As for disc brakes, it's my opinion that the main reason holding back rim-brakes lovers to make the jump is related to weight. And the way to make disc groupsets weight competitive is to reduce weight on the calipers.

The only reason for sram to go 10t was not efficiency (which is a huge loss) but weight. With a 10t they could shave weight on a smaller crankset and then market the groupset as not being that heavy. However, the 10t is really not a good choice - see the pro teams using 53/54t front rings just to avoid using the 10t sprocket.

As for my cents, and knowing that I currently ride sram etap, I'll gladly jump to shimano if they don't go blind witht the 10t and especially find a new way to build the groupset and make it closer to the rim-brake weights. Decreasing the current weight penalty would boost dics brakes bikes and it would be a comparative advantage over the competition.
in the calipers there is no need to reduce weight, more than losing weight, the fit and performance must be improved....................improve piston recoil, individualized adjustment of the brake pads..............I don't see that at least in the calipers, weight can be significantly reduced, 5-10 grams would not look remarkable, except for those obsessed with weight

pmprego
Posts: 1551
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

Ritxis wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:50 pm

in the calipers there is no need to reduce weight, more than losing weight, the fit and performance must be improved....................improve piston recoil, individualized adjustment of the brake pads..............I don't see that at least in the calipers, weight can be significantly reduced, 5-10 grams would not look remarkable, except for those obsessed with weight
Those are important upgrades, for sure. Really.

W. R. T. weight, there is a 300gr penalty for the disc groupset. All of it in the hoods, caliper and rotors. The hoods only are some 100gr more. I understand it'll not be easy to reduce 200gr but it's a considerable difference. Just see what people do and pay to save 300gr. But piston recoil is hugely important. I suffer from that.

by Weenie


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