Dura-Ace R9200

[ipenguinking]

hi cat4forlife, yes your video shows your bike is making exactly same noise as my bike was (is) making - more hard plastic rattling than typical metalic clicking associates with mis-aligned mis-adjusted RD. And yes the rattle happens at a certain cadence on my bike - low cadence when there is little load and high cadence. Unfortunatley new pulleys from Shimano did not fix the problem. The exactly same rattling came back 5 miles into the first ride. I'm currently waiting for new RD from Shimano which is in backorder. I'm hoping it will show up soon. Btw which wheel are you running? I'm running the new 9200 C50 wheels, DA cassette. I agreed with my mechanic that the situation is just weird and not sure if RD is the problem.

[pdlpsher1]

Quick question.
I have an opportunity to buy a whole rd-r9250 carbon plate (someone swap it for OSPW).
Can I mount it to my Ultegra rd-r8150 to reduce weight? Is it safe to do so? If so - what would be the weight gain?

In theorey, yes. They should be compatible. But be aware that with the 11-speed groups the pulleys were not compatible (the bearing thickness is different). In other words you can't put 9100 pulleys on a 8000 cage. I'm assuming that stays the same with the 12-speed groups. Part of the weight savings actually came from the pulleys on the 11-speed groups. You should buy the 9250 cage. But just don't take your 8150 pulleys and put them on the 9250 cage once the 9250 pulleys have worn out.

[cat4forlife]

hi cat4forlife, yes your video shows your bike is making exactly same noise as my bike was (is) making - more hard plastic rattling than typical metalic clicking associates with mis-aligned mis-adjusted RD. And yes the rattle happens at a certain cadence on my bike - low cadence when there is little load and high cadence. Unfortunatley new pulleys from Shimano did not fix the problem. The exactly same rattling came back 5 miles into the first ride. I'm currently waiting for new RD from Shimano which is in backorder. I'm hoping it will show up soon. Btw which wheel are you running? I'm running the new 9200 C50 wheels, DA cassette. I agreed with my mechanic that the situation is just weird and not sure if RD is the problem.

I have the Enve 4.5 AR disc wheels with Ultegra 11-30 cassette. I sold the 11-30 Dura-Ace cassette that came with the groupset a while back and ordered a 11-34 Dura-Ace cassette, which did not show up until last week.

This may be unrelated to the rattle but is the lower pulley on your RD much closer to the left side of the cage? When i started troubleshooting this issue a few weeks ago, that's the first thing i noticed. The video below is taken not directly behind the cage but you can clearly see there is a lot more space between the lower pulley and the right side of the cage than the lower pulley and the left side of the cage.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v7r5f1cseq4gf ... 2.mov?dl=0

[ipenguinking]

hi cat4forlife, yes your video shows your bike is making exactly same noise as my bike was (is) making - more hard plastic rattling than typical metalic clicking associates with mis-aligned mis-adjusted RD. And yes the rattle happens at a certain cadence on my bike - low cadence when there is little load and high cadence. Unfortunatley new pulleys from Shimano did not fix the problem. The exactly same rattling came back 5 miles into the first ride. I'm currently waiting for new RD from Shimano which is in backorder. I'm hoping it will show up soon. Btw which wheel are you running? I'm running the new 9200 C50 wheels, DA cassette. I agreed with my mechanic that the situation is just weird and not sure if RD is the problem.

I have the Enve 4.5 AR disc wheels with Ultegra 11-30 cassette. I sold the 11-30 Dura-Ace cassette that came with the groupset a while back and ordered a 11-34 Dura-Ace cassette, which did not show up until last week.

This may be unrelated to the rattle but is the lower pulley on your RD much closer to the left side of the cage? When i started troubleshooting this issue a few weeks ago, that's the first thing i noticed. The video below is taken not directly behind the cage but you can clearly see there is a lot more space between the lower pulley and the right side of the cage than the lower pulley and the left side of the cage.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v7r5f1cseq4gf ... 2.mov?dl=0

Yes the lower pulley on my RD is sitting exactly same position as yours. I just checked.

[cat4forlife]

hi cat4forlife, yes your video shows your bike is making exactly same noise as my bike was (is) making - more hard plastic rattling than typical metalic clicking associates with mis-aligned mis-adjusted RD. And yes the rattle happens at a certain cadence on my bike - low cadence when there is little load and high cadence. Unfortunatley new pulleys from Shimano did not fix the problem. The exactly same rattling came back 5 miles into the first ride. I'm currently waiting for new RD from Shimano which is in backorder. I'm hoping it will show up soon. Btw which wheel are you running? I'm running the new 9200 C50 wheels, DA cassette. I agreed with my mechanic that the situation is just weird and not sure if RD is the problem.

I have the Enve 4.5 AR disc wheels with Ultegra 11-30 cassette. I sold the 11-30 Dura-Ace cassette that came with the groupset a while back and ordered a 11-34 Dura-Ace cassette, which did not show up until last week.

This may be unrelated to the rattle but is the lower pulley on your RD much closer to the left side of the cage? When i started troubleshooting this issue a few weeks ago, that's the first thing i noticed. The video below is taken not directly behind the cage but you can clearly see there is a lot more space between the lower pulley and the right side of the cage than the lower pulley and the left side of the cage.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v7r5f1cseq4gf ... 2.mov?dl=0

Yes the lower pulley on my RD is sitting exactly same position as yours. I just checked.

I asked because someone suggested that the pulley is too close to the left side of the cage and the chatter could be due to the chain rubbing against the cage. If that was the case, the chatter would have happened all the time, instead of specific cadence. Regardless, i took a closer look while it was chattering and the chain was not in contact with the cage. I believe the lower pulley is by design to be closer to the left side of the cage. I took the pulleys out, cleaned them, and replaced them. Once the pulley bolts are properly torqued, they do not have any lateral movement.

In the test i did just minutes ago, i placed my finger on the pulleys while it was chattering and that did not silence the chatter. Grabbing on to the cage did damplen the chatter so it appears the cage is the source of the rattle. As to why the rear derailleur cage only started chattering recently but not when it was brand new 5 months ago, i do not have a clue. It is annoying the crap out of me though as i have very little tolerance for any rattle, squeak, creak, and now, chatter.

[riochang]

I have the exactly the same rattling noise, and I can confirm that its due to chain rubbing the cage "tab", nothing to do with pulley wheels.
Also for those who wonder, I installed the chain correctly, it is just by design that the chain is sitting super close to this cage tab, and thus any slight change to chain tension when pedaling, the chain slightly rubs the tab causing this plastic rattling noise.
It's quite obvious when you look at the chain in motion from the non drive side, i.e. inner side of the rear derailleur.

[spdntrxi]

I looked at my new un-installed RD.. samething. Pulley is off to one side. May be awhile before I install mine since I am considering a new build.

How important is that tab ?

[riochang]

tbh I dont know what is the use of that tab. But cannot bend or remove it either, since it's part of the cage plate and is made from carbon.
This is the only time that I'd actually consider getting an OSPW just to solve the rattling noise...

[spdntrxi]

I mean old school RD cages dont have a tab..

I mean it's there so the chain does not come off the top pulley, but maybe it can be turned down some ?? I dont know anyone that has ever had this problem on a strictly road bike.

Maybe it helps keep the chain in place when the wheel is off ? Seems of little purpose for one that knows how a chain should weave through the pulleys

[pdlpsher1]

It looks like at a specific cadence/load the chain's vertical vibration goes into a resonance where the vibration is amplified, causing the chain to hit the derailleur's guide tab. Since I don't have the same issue I suspect the root cause is not related to the RD but rather the setup of the bike (i.e. chainstay length, proper chain length, proper B-gap adjustment, type of chain, type of chain lube, etc.) If this was my bike I would first check for the proper chain length. If the chain is sufficiently long where removing one link doesn't affect the operation of the RD I'd remove one link. Removing one full link of the chain shifts the natural resonance frequency of the chain. Another thing to try is the B-gap adjustment. Even if the B-gap is properly set, try a new setting and see if that helps. Changing the pulley to cassette distance will alter the chain's resonance frequency.

Since the guide tab is there for a purpose (keeping the chain from coming off the pulleys?), modifying or removing the tab will probably end with an adverse result under some circumstances. The tab was probably designed to be very close to the chain on purpose.

[cat4forlife]

I have the exactly the same rattling noise, and I can confirm that its due to chain rubbing the cage "tab", nothing to do with pulley wheels.
Also for those who wonder, I installed the chain correctly, it is just by design that the chain is sitting super close to this cage tab, and thus any slight change to chain tension when pedaling, the chain slightly rubs the tab causing this plastic rattling noise.
It's quite obvious when you look at the chain in motion from the non drive side, i.e. inner side of the rear derailleur.
shimano-dura-ace-di2-rd-r9250-rear-derailleur-3-1053529.jpg

I put my bike on the stand and used another bike stand to hold my iPhone so that i could prove that you were wrong but ended up confirming that indeed the rattle/chatter is caused by the chain rubbing against the bottom of that guide tab. At a certain cadence, the chain "jumps" out and comes into contact with the tab. As to the cause, i'm still trying to determine.

I'll definitely give the B gap adjustment a check, as suggested by pdlpsher1. I haven't touched it since i initially set it up but it's due for a check anyway.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pp5orly2v53vm ... 3.mov?dl=0

[spdntrxi]

this is good work.. at least I know what to look for when I get around to install time.

[pdlpsher1]

What gear combo are you seeing this? Just on one particular gear combo or across multiple gear combos?

Another thing to possibly try is to increase the cage tension. Shimano cages come with two settings, and by default they are set to the looser setting.

One interesting aspect of the 12-speed groups is the overall quietness. And the downside is that any abnormal noises are greatly amplified

[ipenguinking]

The rattle happens mostly on 36-19, but also on 36-21 and 36-23. So that's 5th, 4th and 3rd from the largest cog. The rattle is mostly absent when riding on big ring. My bike runs 52/36 front and 11-30 rear. One very interesting thing I've noticed is the rattle can often be heard when I'm riding over pothole at same rythum. What I mean is the rattle shows up split second after my bike's rear wheel hit the pothole. Same pattern for over less than perfect road surface. So that's quite possible from the chain hitting the tab when the chain/cage move rapidly while going in and out the pothole. And the reason the rattle is absent when riding at big ring is because the greater chain tension is preventing the chain touching the tab. If this is the right assumption, then a shorter chain or greater cage tension might solve the rattle.B-tension adjustment can also work.

[openwheelracing]

Quick question.
I have an opportunity to buy a whole rd-r9250 carbon plate (someone swap it for OSPW).
Can I mount it to my Ultegra rd-r8150 to reduce weight? Is it safe to do so? If so - what would be the weight gain?

In theorey, yes. They should be compatible. But be aware that with the 11-speed groups the pulleys were not compatible (the bearing thickness is different). In other words you can't put 9100 pulleys on a 8000 cage. I'm assuming that stays the same with the 12-speed groups. Part of the weight savings actually came from the pulleys on the 11-speed groups. You should buy the 9250 cage. But just don't take your 8150 pulleys and put them on the 9250 cage once the 9250 pulleys have worn out.

Is this true? I have 9100 pulleys in 8000 and they are working fine.