Dura-Ace R9200

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Alfus
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:34 pm

by Alfus

LainOTN wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:59 pm
jmomentum wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:43 pm
Will any of the new DA components (fd,rd) be interchangeable with 9170?
Will 9170 be able to use the 12 speed cassette with a firmware update or is this not possible or not something shimano will do?
if they allow fully wired you will need to upgrade your FD and RD (and logically cassette and chain) You can maintain the rest of the components.
This was the upgrade path from 10 to 11 and I expect to be the same for 11 to 12.
Diferent wires..

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LainOTN
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:01 pm

by LainOTN

Alfus wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:28 pm
LainOTN wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:59 pm
jmomentum wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:43 pm
Will any of the new DA components (fd,rd) be interchangeable with 9170?
Will 9170 be able to use the 12 speed cassette with a firmware update or is this not possible or not something shimano will do?
if they allow fully wired you will need to upgrade your FD and RD (and logically cassette and chain) You can maintain the rest of the components.
This was the upgrade path from 10 to 11 and I expect to be the same for 11 to 12.
Diferent wires..
https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/product/ ... AD305.html

A bit bulky installation if you don't want to rewire :P
But yeah you are right, rewiring might be necessary, at least to hide teh adaptors in the frame. But I bet the communication protocol will be the same.

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ryanw
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Location: London

by ryanw

Just a bit different...
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SL8 S-Works Project Black - 6.29kg
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Ritxis
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

LainOTN wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:59 pm
jmomentum wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:43 pm
Will any of the new DA components (fd,rd) be interchangeable with 9170?
Will 9170 be able to use the 12 speed cassette with a firmware update or is this not possible or not something shimano will do?
if they allow fully wired you will need to upgrade your FD and RD (and logically cassette and chain) You can maintain the rest of the components.
This was the upgrade path from 10 to 11 and I expect to be the same for 11 to 12.
from 10 (Ultegra 6770) to 11 you can only use the shifters and all the wiring...........the rear derailleur no, and only the front derailleur was for a while, with an update the compatibility FD-6770 with the rear deraulleurs of 11 is finished, the fd-6770 did not have the setting top position electrical adjustment

I don't think it is possible to upgrade from 11 to 12 via firmware......maybe Shimano leaves the possibility ??? of using the levers of the groups of 11 with the derailleurs of 12, here is SD50 cable adapter to the new SD300

Alfus
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:34 pm

by Alfus

Ritxis wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:52 pm
LainOTN wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:59 pm
jmomentum wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:43 pm
Will any of the new DA components (fd,rd) be interchangeable with 9170?
Will 9170 be able to use the 12 speed cassette with a firmware update or is this not possible or not something shimano will do?
if they allow fully wired you will need to upgrade your FD and RD (and logically cassette and chain) You can maintain the rest of the components.
This was the upgrade path from 10 to 11 and I expect to be the same for 11 to 12.
from 10 (Ultegra 6770) to 11 you can only use the shifters and all the wiring...........the rear derailleur no, and only the front derailleur was for a while, with an update the compatibility FD-6770 with the rear deraulleurs of 11 is finished, the fd-6770 did not have the setting top position electrical adjustment

I don't think it is possible to upgrade from 11 to 12 via firmware......maybe Shimano leaves the possibility ??? of using the levers of the groups of 11 with the derailleurs of 12, here is SD50 cable adapter to the new SD300

Why? To sell less groups? No way..

Ritxis
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

Alfus wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:24 pm
Ritxis wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:52 pm
LainOTN wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:59 pm
jmomentum wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:43 pm
Will any of the new DA components (fd,rd) be interchangeable with 9170?
Will 9170 be able to use the 12 speed cassette with a firmware update or is this not possible or not something shimano will do?
if they allow fully wired you will need to upgrade your FD and RD (and logically cassette and chain) You can maintain the rest of the components.
This was the upgrade path from 10 to 11 and I expect to be the same for 11 to 12.
from 10 (Ultegra 6770) to 11 you can only use the shifters and all the wiring...........the rear derailleur no, and only the front derailleur was for a while, with an update the compatibility FD-6770 with the rear deraulleurs of 11 is finished, the fd-6770 did not have the setting top position electrical adjustment

I don't think it is possible to upgrade from 11 to 12 via firmware......maybe Shimano leaves the possibility ??? of using the levers of the groups of 11 with the derailleurs of 12, here is SD50 cable adapter to the new SD300

Why? To sell less groups? No way..
yes, but ....... how do you explain that you can set up a group mixing parts of all the e-tube groups ???
shifters 6770, Fd-R8050, Rd-6800.........I have had that combination mounted....

Wouldn't it be another way to expand sales? allow the use of current shifters with the new derailleurs........
If someone does not want or can buy the entire group and therefore continues as long as possible without renewing and you give them that option, they still make the effort and invest in what is necessary

LainOTN
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:01 pm

by LainOTN

Ritxis wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:34 pm
Alfus wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:24 pm
Ritxis wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:52 pm
LainOTN wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:59 pm


if they allow fully wired you will need to upgrade your FD and RD (and logically cassette and chain) You can maintain the rest of the components.
This was the upgrade path from 10 to 11 and I expect to be the same for 11 to 12.
from 10 (Ultegra 6770) to 11 you can only use the shifters and all the wiring...........the rear derailleur no, and only the front derailleur was for a while, with an update the compatibility FD-6770 with the rear deraulleurs of 11 is finished, the fd-6770 did not have the setting top position electrical adjustment

I don't think it is possible to upgrade from 11 to 12 via firmware......maybe Shimano leaves the possibility ??? of using the levers of the groups of 11 with the derailleurs of 12, here is SD50 cable adapter to the new SD300

Why? To sell less groups? No way..
yes, but ....... how do you explain that you can set up a group mixing parts of all the e-tube groups ???
shifters 6770, Fd-R8050, Rd-6800.........I have had that combination mounted....

Wouldn't it be another way to expand sales? allow the use of current shifters with the new derailleurs........
If someone does not want or can buy the entire group and therefore continues as long as possible without renewing and you give them that option, they still make the effort and invest in what is necessary
Sorry, when I said upgrade I meant change the whole derraileurs for the new ones, not to update the FW.
I still think that we will see that route of compatibility via cable adaptors.

Lina
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

ghostinthemachine wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:09 pm
ohexploitable wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:16 pm
people who buy di2 probably have macs though. i'd even wager that the majority of dura ace di2 owners own macs
FWIW, I know hundreds of people who own Di2 of all generations. Probably count the Mac owners on my fingers and toes. And I'm not from Norfolk.

I know a good few who don't even own computers.
Macs, and Apple products in general are an American thing. The market share for iPhones, Macs, and everything else Apple does is a lot higher in NA than it is in Europe.

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TerryDi2C
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Posts: 270
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:24 pm
Contact:

by TerryDi2C

LainOTN wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:09 pm
Alfus wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:28 pm
LainOTN wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:59 pm
jmomentum wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:43 pm
Will any of the new DA components (fd,rd) be interchangeable with 9170?
Will 9170 be able to use the 12 speed cassette with a firmware update or is this not possible or not something shimano will do?
if they allow fully wired you will need to upgrade your FD and RD (and logically cassette and chain) You can maintain the rest of the components.
This was the upgrade path from 10 to 11 and I expect to be the same for 11 to 12.
Diferent wires..
https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/product/ ... AD305.html

A bit bulky installation if you don't want to rewire :P
But yeah you are right, rewiring might be necessary, at least to hide teh adaptors in the frame. But I bet the communication protocol will be the same.
It is, it's just the wire/plug size that is different.
(I built an 8 mtr Di2 'circuit' using EW-SD50 wires and EW-SD300 wires a few months ago)

darnold
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:54 pm

by darnold

It's long thread, if I repeat something pls have mercy.

Interesting that main component mising here are the calipiers and rotors (the video states they are xtr rotors). I suspect that the design of the braking system is the root cause in the delay of releasing the new DA group. I will not be surprised if we see some electronic braking control system in the final product. If this happens there will be a wire from the sensor at the caliper and toothed ring on the rotor. The processing will happen the batery/cpu/memory module as previously dicussed.

LainOTN
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:01 pm

by LainOTN

darnold wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:06 pm
It's long thread, if I repeat something pls have mercy.

Interesting that main component mising here are the calipiers and rotors (the video states they are xtr rotors). I suspect that the design of the braking system is the root cause in the delay of releasing the new DA group. I will not be surprised if we see some electronic braking control system in the final product. If this happens there will be a wire from the sensor at the caliper and toothed ring on the rotor. The processing will happen the batery/cpu/memory module as previously dicussed.
There is a patent presenting the brake-by-wire electronic signaling with hydraulic "self contained" calipers. But Alfus confirmed that this is a long term idea not to be seen in this DA iteration.

In any case Shimano has said that disk brakes is one of the things that they want to improve (usage and mantenaince)
Last edited by LainOTN on Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Ritxis
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

darnold wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:06 pm
It's long thread, if I repeat something pls have mercy.

Interesting that main component mising here are the calipiers and rotors (the video states they are xtr rotors). I suspect that the design of the braking system is the root cause in the delay of releasing the new DA group. I will not be surprised if we see some electronic braking control system in the final product. If this happens there will be a wire from the sensor at the caliper and toothed ring on the rotor. The processing will happen the batery/cpu/memory module as previously dicussed.
where there should be improvements is in the braking system (caliper and shifters) .... where more "complaints" have the Pro's

rhgastur
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:13 am

by rhgastur

LainOTN wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:18 pm
darnold wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:06 pm
It's long thread, if I repeat something pls have mercy.

Interesting that main component mising here are the calipiers and rotors (the video states they are xtr rotors). I suspect that the design of the braking system is the root cause in the delay of releasing the new DA group. I will not be surprised if we see some electronic braking control system in the final product. If this happens there will be a wire from the sensor at the caliper and toothed ring on the rotor. The processing will happen the batery/cpu/memory module as previously dicussed.
There is a patent presenting the brake-by-wire electronic signaling with hydraulic "self contained" calipers. But Alfus confirmed that this is a long term idea not to be seen in this DA iteration.

In any case Shimano has said that disk brakes is one of the things that they want to improve (usage and mantenaince)
My understanding is that in some markets electronic brakes are not accepted yet. In most (if not all) European countries the braking system needs to be able to be operated by direct action. I.e. if you run out of battery you still need to be able to stop your vehicle.
Something similar hapens with the steering systems. That's why we do not have cars with only electric steering (electric assisted systems is something else), or only electric braking.
Last edited by rhgastur on Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rhgastur
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:13 am

by rhgastur

Double post

by Weenie


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ghostinthemachine
Posts: 780
Joined: Thu May 07, 2015 9:18 pm

by ghostinthemachine

IIRC even shimanos patents for "electronic braking" show a hydraulic link between lever and caliper.
So the electronics is more likely to be for monitoring, modulation and possibly ebike integration. Not full brake by wire. Barely even servo assisted.

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