Dura-Ace R9200

[bobones]

Okay time to do my story about the rattling and creaking Shimano 12 speed cassettes.
...

These seem to be the issues that 0.5 or 1 mm spacer behind cassette fixes (creaking and/or wobbling cassette). I've also read that removing the sticky ring from the back of the cassette also fixes some issues related to the fit of the cassette on different hubs. I am currently running my 8100 cassette/chain with 1 mm spacer and no sticky ring and there's no creaking, wobbling, clicking or mis-shifts.

[pdlpsher1]

New founding. The 19T is in fact, as pdlpsher1 says tripping the chain at two teeths.

It's the outer link that is catching into the thicker side of the 19T

Now the problem is what would be the best way to resolve this. Seems like I should just file it a bit? or perhaps use a narrower chain?

I would suggest measuring the gaps between the offending cogs, using a feeler gauge if you have one. If you find that the gap between the 19T and 21T is slightly thinner, you could move the adhesive ring in between the 19T and 21T cogs. If the gaps are all of the same, then file down the two offending teeth on the 19T. This could very well be a manufacturing tolerance issue. Once I get my 11-34 cassette I'll measure mine after I install it on the freehub.

[RDY]

I don't think I've had it as bad as many of the people on this thread or elsewhere, but my experience with new Di2 (mix of Ultegra RD & FD and DA everything else) has not been positive.

RD was an absolute pig to set up so that it worked acceptably, unlike previous gen mechanical and Di2, which were easy, and shifted very well. I suspect mainly due to the cassette rather than the derailleur itself. Cassette / chain doesn't wobble or click, but the 'problem cogs' that loads of people have are quite a bit noisier than they should be or would be expected. BAM / CLANG shifts are probably around 5% of the time, delayed shifts (some small delay and some large delay) about 5-10% .. way more than I ever experienced with 11speed Di2 or well set up mechical 105/UT/DA/GRX.

FD is much worse - mainly because you can only trim it in the app, as they eliminated manual limit screws, which will lock you out of further (needed) adjustment either arbitrarily or if it decides there is too much chain tension (i.e. correct length chain). It's not really possible to shift Rotor Q-Rings from small to big - Rotor mistakenly told me they were fine - and I'm doubtful if most oval design rings will ever work well or acceptably. Shifting was also very poor (though worked just about) on some spare DA9100 rings the shop had laying around. Never had an issue with either mech or Di2 round or oval rings on previous gen.

DA brifters feel flimsy, and make a lot of clicking noises and flex noticeably. Not something I can say I've ever experienced with any prior Shimano SKU. This was particularly unexpected and disappointing. Clarification - I mean the main body and tops of the hoods, not the lever blades.

Brakes took less time to eliminate air bubbles than previous gen, and increased pad clearance is appreciated. No improvement in feel or power (despite servowave) that I can discern, and pads still move / clack / rattle (annoyance mainly).

At this point, I wouldn't do a Shimano 12s Di2 build again. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the chainrings - currently only riding on flat or rolling stuff. I'd prefer to use ovals. Might consider going SRAMANO - Force RD, Rival FD / Brifters, TrickStuff calipers. Aside from the wireless front end, 12s Di2 is a significant step backwards IMO.

[overl0ad]

I don't think I've had it as bad as many of the people on this thread or elsewhere, but my experience with new Di2 (mix of Ultegra RD & FD and DA everything else) has not been positive.

RD was an absolute pig to set up so that it worked acceptably, unlike previous gen mechanical and Di2, which were easy, and shifted very well. I suspect mainly due to the cassette rather than the derailleur itself. Cassette / chain doesn't wobble or click, but the 'problem cogs' that loads of people have are quite a bit noisier than they should be or would be expected. BAM / CLANG shifts are probably around 5% of the time, delayed shifts (some small delay and some large delay) about 5-10% .. way more than I ever experienced with 11speed Di2 or well set up mechical 105/UT/DA/GRX.

FD is much worse - mainly because you can only trim it in the app, as they eliminated manual limit screws, which will lock you out of further (needed) adjustment either arbitrarily or if it decides there is too much chain tension (i.e. correct length chain). It's not really possible to shift Rotor Q-Rings from small to big - Rotor mistakenly told me they were fine - and I'm doubtful if most oval design rings will ever work well or acceptably. Shifting was also very poor (though worked just about) on some spare DA9100 rings the shop had laying around. Never had an issue with either mech or Di2 round or oval rings on previous gen.

DA brifters feel flimsy, and make a lot of clicking noises and flex noticeably. Not something I can say I've ever experienced with any prior Shimano SKU. This was particularly unexpected and disappointing. Clarification - I mean the main body and tops of the hoods, not the lever blades.

Brakes took less time to eliminate air bubbles than previous gen, and increased pad clearance is appreciated. No improvement in feel or power (despite servowave) that I can discern, and pads still move / clack / rattle (annoyance mainly).

At this point, I wouldn't do a Shimano 12s Di2 build again. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the chainrings - currently only riding on flat or rolling stuff. I'd prefer to use ovals. Might consider going SRAMANO - Force RD, Rival FD / Brifters, TrickStuff calipers. Aside from the wireless front end, 12s Di2 is a significant step backwards IMO.

i'm not sure wireless is really a step forward other than when building the thing. one less thing to do.

once it's setup, why do you need wireless? not like 99.99999% of people are going to be moving stuff around. esp with hydros. if rim brakes, yeah, ok. you can maybe make an argument for it as swapping out the cable is a 1 min job.

and the wireless... to update the firmware on the shifters, you still need to wire them in anyways.... so, what's the advantage? more random signal noise, 2 more batteries you gotta think about. can't ell me that a wireless signal is quicker than an actual electrical current down a cable.

so the whole wireless thing makes little to no sense at all to me. it's trendy and simply "keeping up with the joneses"

[ODC]

I don't think I've had it as bad as many of the people on this thread or elsewhere, but my experience with new Di2 (mix of Ultegra RD & FD and DA everything else) has not been positive.

RD was an absolute pig to set up so that it worked acceptably, unlike previous gen mechanical and Di2, which were easy, and shifted very well. I suspect mainly due to the cassette rather than the derailleur itself. Cassette / chain doesn't wobble or click, but the 'problem cogs' that loads of people have are quite a bit noisier than they should be or would be expected. BAM / CLANG shifts are probably around 5% of the time, delayed shifts (some small delay and some large delay) about 5-10% .. way more than I ever experienced with 11speed Di2 or well set up mechical 105/UT/DA/GRX.

FD is much worse - mainly because you can only trim it in the app, as they eliminated manual limit screws, which will lock you out of further (needed) adjustment either arbitrarily or if it decides there is too much chain tension (i.e. correct length chain). It's not really possible to shift Rotor Q-Rings from small to big - Rotor mistakenly told me they were fine - and I'm doubtful if most oval design rings will ever work well or acceptably. Shifting was also very poor (though worked just about) on some spare DA9100 rings the shop had laying around. Never had an issue with either mech or Di2 round or oval rings on previous gen.

DA brifters feel flimsy, and make a lot of clicking noises and flex noticeably. Not something I can say I've ever experienced with any prior Shimano SKU. This was particularly unexpected and disappointing. Clarification - I mean the main body and tops of the hoods, not the lever blades.

Brakes took less time to eliminate air bubbles than previous gen, and increased pad clearance is appreciated. No improvement in feel or power (despite servowave) that I can discern, and pads still move / clack / rattle (annoyance mainly).

At this point, I wouldn't do a Shimano 12s Di2 build again. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the chainrings - currently only riding on flat or rolling stuff. I'd prefer to use ovals. Might consider going SRAMANO - Force RD, Rival FD / Brifters, TrickStuff calipers. Aside from the wireless front end, 12s Di2 is a significant step backwards IMO.

i'm not sure wireless is really a step forward other than when building the thing. one less thing to do.

once it's setup, why do you need wireless? not like 99.99999% of people are going to be moving stuff around. esp with hydros. if rim brakes, yeah, ok. you can maybe make an argument for it as swapping out the cable is a 1 min job.

and the wireless... to update the firmware on the shifters, you still need to wire them in anyways.... so, what's the advantage? more random signal noise, 2 more batteries you gotta think about. can't ell me that a wireless signal is quicker than an actual electrical current down a cable.

so the whole wireless thing makes little to no sense at all to me. it's trendy and simply "keeping up with the joneses"

I think they made it wireless because their where a lot of pro mechanics that wanted less cables for the integrated stem/bar combination.
But it's like you said. Once installed, in normal conditions, you aren't moving stuff around.

[MagicShite]

Holy shit, I have finally "fixed" it. Long ass story incoming beware.

1. I used one of the thick spacers between the cassette as a feeler gauge and realized the 17-19T carrier has a slightly narrower spacing when mated to the largest carriers (in this case, 21T-30T or 21T-34T).

2. Used one of my shims I made for offsetting trainers (about 0.15mm-0.17mm) each and space it in between the carriers. Voila, noise all gone. However, this came with a caveat, the 11T no longer pedals smoothly and there is a skip every turn. This means the narrower spacing is intentional.

3. Swapped the 17-19T carriers between two different cassettes (11-30 and 11-34) and compared both. They look almost identical but the printing is different and one of the holes are machined differently. I swap it on anyway and voila, the ticking noise is back. This time it is similar to the ticking noise found on the 11-34.

4. Noticed two issues, the 11-34's secondary carrier has one tooth catching the chain while the 11-30T's secondary carrier has 3 teeth catching the chain. Decided to *f##k* it and just file the 11-30T's 19T's 3 problematic teeth slightly (no electrical tool involved, just some hand job *wink*). Voila, noise gone.

I'm certain that the 19Ts are simply not manufactured properly as it seems like it is less than 0.1mm type of shaving required to resolve this.

Overall still a shitty experience. The old 11 speeds are way better in almost everyway in terms of shifting.

I'm reserving the 11-34T's modification until I can confirm it works for real on the road with the 11-30T. Too tired to care anymore at this point.

[BdaGhisallo]

For those who have mentioned having issues with wobbly freehubs on Shimano 12sp wheels, are they with the Ultegra wheels with the old style pawl freehub or with the Dura Ace wheels that have the new ratchet style design?

[bobones]

For those who have mentioned having issues with wobbly freehubs on Shimano 12sp wheels, are they with the Ultegra wheels with the old style pawl freehub or with the Dura Ace wheels that have the new ratchet style design?

In my case neither. It isn't the hub, it's the way the cassette sits on the hub. Spacer or removing sticky ring fixes it.

[RDY]

I don't think I've had it as bad as many of the people on this thread or elsewhere, but my experience with new Di2 (mix of Ultegra RD & FD and DA everything else) has not been positive.

RD was an absolute pig to set up so that it worked acceptably, unlike previous gen mechanical and Di2, which were easy, and shifted very well. I suspect mainly due to the cassette rather than the derailleur itself. Cassette / chain doesn't wobble or click, but the 'problem cogs' that loads of people have are quite a bit noisier than they should be or would be expected. BAM / CLANG shifts are probably around 5% of the time, delayed shifts (some small delay and some large delay) about 5-10% .. way more than I ever experienced with 11speed Di2 or well set up mechical 105/UT/DA/GRX.

FD is much worse - mainly because you can only trim it in the app, as they eliminated manual limit screws, which will lock you out of further (needed) adjustment either arbitrarily or if it decides there is too much chain tension (i.e. correct length chain). It's not really possible to shift Rotor Q-Rings from small to big - Rotor mistakenly told me they were fine - and I'm doubtful if most oval design rings will ever work well or acceptably. Shifting was also very poor (though worked just about) on some spare DA9100 rings the shop had laying around. Never had an issue with either mech or Di2 round or oval rings on previous gen.

DA brifters feel flimsy, and make a lot of clicking noises and flex noticeably. Not something I can say I've ever experienced with any prior Shimano SKU. This was particularly unexpected and disappointing. Clarification - I mean the main body and tops of the hoods, not the lever blades.

Brakes took less time to eliminate air bubbles than previous gen, and increased pad clearance is appreciated. No improvement in feel or power (despite servowave) that I can discern, and pads still move / clack / rattle (annoyance mainly).

At this point, I wouldn't do a Shimano 12s Di2 build again. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the chainrings - currently only riding on flat or rolling stuff. I'd prefer to use ovals. Might consider going SRAMANO - Force RD, Rival FD / Brifters, TrickStuff calipers. Aside from the wireless front end, 12s Di2 is a significant step backwards IMO.

i'm not sure wireless is really a step forward other than when building the thing. one less thing to do.

once it's setup, why do you need wireless? not like 99.99999% of people are going to be moving stuff around. esp with hydros. if rim brakes, yeah, ok. you can maybe make an argument for it as swapping out the cable is a 1 min job.

and the wireless... to update the firmware on the shifters, you still need to wire them in anyways.... so, what's the advantage? more random signal noise, 2 more batteries you gotta think about. can't ell me that a wireless signal is quicker than an actual electrical current down a cable.

so the whole wireless thing makes little to no sense at all to me. it's trendy and simply "keeping up with the joneses"

You're railing against wireless as if it's the cause or a contributing factor in the many issues besetting new 12s Di2. It has nothing to do with them and is a needed improvement given the landscape of bad or difficult internal cable routing solutions in the industry. Even the moronic update procedure has nothing to do with it being wireless ... SRAM wireless shifters are super easy to update ... it's Shimano that are at fault.

[tmanley]

It's not really possible to shift Rotor Q-Rings from small to big - Rotor mistakenly told me they were fine - and I'm doubtful if most oval design rings will ever work well or acceptably.

Same experience here - gave up on trying to make the Q-rings work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RDY]

It's not really possible to shift Rotor Q-Rings from small to big - Rotor mistakenly told me they were fine - and I'm doubtful if most oval design rings will ever work well or acceptably.

Same experience here - gave up on trying to make the Q-rings work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Little follow up on that. I forgot to mention that CarbonTi were pretty non-commital when I asked if their Carbocam ovals would work with new Di2 (I can't imagine they will - though shape is quite different to Qs). They did however say that it was unlikely they'd update them for 8100/9200, unlike the round rings ... which implies that they think it won't work consistently. It's the reason I went with Rotor.

[kode54]

Holy shit, I have finally "fixed" it. Long ass story incoming beware.

1. I used one of the thick spacers between the cassette as a feeler gauge and realized the 17-19T carrier has a slightly narrower spacing when mated to the largest carriers (in this case, 21T-30T or 21T-34T).

2. Used one of my shims I made for offsetting trainers (about 0.15mm-0.17mm) each and space it in between the carriers. Voila, noise all gone. However, this came with a caveat, the 11T no longer pedals smoothly and there is a skip every turn. This means the narrower spacing is intentional.

3. Swapped the 17-19T carriers between two different cassettes (11-30 and 11-34) and compared both. They look almost identical but the printing is different and one of the holes are machined differently. I swap it on anyway and voila, the ticking noise is back. This time it is similar to the ticking noise found on the 11-34.

4. Noticed two issues, the 11-34's secondary carrier has one tooth catching the chain while the 11-30T's secondary carrier has 3 teeth catching the chain. Decided to *f##k* it and just file the 11-30T's 19T's 3 problematic teeth slightly (no electrical tool involved, just some hand job *wink*). Voila, noise gone.

I'm certain that the 19Ts are simply not manufactured properly as it seems like it is less than 0.1mm type of shaving required to resolve this.

Overall still a shitty experience. The old 11 speeds are way better in almost everyway in terms of shifting.

I'm reserving the 11-34T's modification until I can confirm it works for real on the road with the 11-30T. Too tired to care anymore at this point.

Any pics on where you shaved off material on the cassette?

[pdlpsher1]

Any pics on where you shaved off material on the cassette?

It should be self-evident by looking/finding the teeth that are closest to the next larger cog. Or you could put your bike on the stand and mark those offending teeth with a Sharpie pen. Keep in mind that this issue may not occur on all bikes. So unless you have the same issue I wouldn't make the modification.

The question now is whether the smaller gap between the two cassette carriers is intentional or not.

[overl0ad]

It's not really possible to shift Rotor Q-Rings from small to big - Rotor mistakenly told me they were fine - and I'm doubtful if most oval design rings will ever work well or acceptably.

Same experience here - gave up on trying to make the Q-rings work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Little follow up on that. I forgot to mention that CarbonTi were pretty non-commital when I asked if their Carbocam ovals would work with new Di2 (I can't imagine they will - though shape is quite different to Qs). They did however say that it was unlikely they'd update them for 8100/9200, unlike the round rings ... which implies that they think it won't work consistently. It's the reason I went with Rotor.

So. I don't know if this is still the case. But when shimano released biopace back in the 90's ( I think was then), I found that you had to time your shift with your pedal stroke.

Might be the same here.

I haven't bothered with oval rings so this is info from ages ago..

[BigBoyND]

From the FSA 12sp WE thread:

Cassettes: 11-25T, 11-28T, 11-32T

I'd expect FSA to make a good shifting cassette, so these could be good options for people who want 12sp and close ratios. They're also very light.