Am i only one finding CAAD12 flexy on hills?

[3Pio]

Ok, after about 1500 km this bike (Campagnolo Record Build), and some more climbing on this bike (finally good weather in last period so possible more climbing), im finding this frame flexy on climbs..

As first i was riding with Shamals Ultra and 4 Season tires (since builded in Januari so this tires/wheelset are my winter setup), but this days i switched to Bora 50 Tubs.. And guess what? Im finding even more flexy with this wheelset...

As first i thought it's in my head, but after comparing Power Numbers on some segments, im realizing that i actually have higher power on CAAD12, and slower times... Im comparing to my Colnago C60... On C60 when i push pedals on climbs, its snappy, going forward feeling, on CAAD12 is like riding in mud... Also im realizing that is easier to hold AVG power on C60 vs CAAD12.. On CAAD12 i have higher max, but somehow avg is harder to keep.. On segments i compared i was comparing just avg power...

Still maybe i need to readjust my position (110mm stem on CAAD12 its 5 mm shorter, 120mm 5 mm longer then i need, so im waiting for 115 mm stem to arrive) , and will do more segment comparation until final conclusion.. But in meanwhile interested in other opionion regarding this..

Do u fiind ur CAAD12 flexy especially on climbs and compared to ur carbon bikes?

At my case both my bikes im comparing are exactly same weight, so i guess weight it's not a problem.. on C60 i have Bora 35 Tubs with Vittoria Corsa G+, on CAAD12 Bora 50 Tubs with Conti Sprinter. (but not sure that this difference can make such a difference in feel i have)

[RyanH]

What are the climbs like and how many data points do you have available to compare? When moving my PMs from bike to bike, I never saw a discrepancy in power/segment times from flexy bikes to super stiff bikes.

I've been going through that exercise right now of trying to identify if my current PM is reading low. It's really hard to identify. I have a cluster of times that match up at a specific wattage on a 9% grade, shortish climb that is mostly sheltered from the wind that I'll hit up today to see but everything else I've ridden this week has been a crapshoot for comparison. I used to have a 9 minute climb that I'd validate all of my PMs on since I'd do Z5 intervals on that climb but they ended up making traffic one way at the end of that segment so a lot of my comparison data is unavailable.

[3Pio]

What are the climbs like and how many data points do you have available to compare? When moving my PMs from bike to bike, I never saw a discrepancy in power/segment times from flexy bikes to super stiff bikes.

I've been going through that exercise right now of trying to identify if my current PM is reading low. It's really hard to identify. I have a cluster of times that match up at a specific wattage on a 9% grade, shortish climb that is mostly sheltered from the wind that I'll hit up today to see but everything else I've ridden this week has been a crapshoot for comparison. I used to have a 9 minute climb that I'd validate all of my PMs on since I'd do Z5 intervals on that climb but they ended up making traffic one way at the end of that segment so a lot of my comparison data is unavailable.

I noticed first that is missing snappy feel i have on my C60 going up, but i thought it's just different feeling and not connected to going slower (i had some PR's on CAAD12 or close to PR's so thought that is on pair with C60, not putting too much attention to how much effort im doing).

Then, since im riding regular with same peoples, on C60 i need less effort compare to them (we ride together few years so know each other weakness and positives...), then i start comparing power numbers.. Since im using Favero Assioma Duo, im transfering pedals from one to other bike, so power meter is the same..

Regarding climbs, there is climbs with almost no traffiic, and avg from 5% up to 10%...And there is few segments just above place i live with no traffic and avg about 6-7% where i start comparing the power numbers.. On Colnago less watts, faster speed.. On Colnago i have stable stiff platform when i push, on CAAD12 i feel some flexiness.. On C60 every pedal push i feel is transfered to forward moving, on CAAD12 have to do more round and more smooth pedaling.. If i do more hammering type of pedaling, i feel flexines even more.. And seem that Bora 50 Tubs pronounced this flexines more then Shamals i rode just a week ago...

[Mr.Gib]

IIRC, a more flexible frame should not have a noticeable impact on time up a hill. Look elsewhere. Atmospheric conditions will have a bigger impact.

[mjdwyer23]

I have 8k miles on my CAAD12 with a longest ride of 137mi/12k. 150lbs / 58cm bike. I do a ton of climbing and haven't noticed flex -- I will admit that on hard sprints I will rub the front brake with my front wheel (Ardennes SL+). I've contemplated swapping out the front fork for an Enve, but other than that I love the bike.

[bjarnetv]

I find my caad 12 plenty stiff feeling up the hills, but then i havent tried a C60, so that might be even stiffer.

a slightly more flexy bottom bracket shouldn't impact the actual times too much though, as the wattage lost will be miniscule, but the feeling of sluggishness could make you slower due to psycological reasons.
i agree that it is probably atmospheric conditions or the wheels/tires making you slower, maybe even the weight difference between the bikes? (if there is any)

The best way to figure out if it's frame that feels sluggish, is to bring a friend (or a car with enough space) and take the two bikes to a short hill, then ride up with both bikes one after the other using the same wheelset (if possible)

to mjdwyer- brake rub is probably due to stiff rims and low spoke-count rather then a flexy fork.

[Dan Gerous]

Maybe it's your subconscious slowing you down on the CAAD to justify the much higher price of the C60?

[Nejmann]

I've used my caad12 frame as a inbetween frames, frame. (Hope you understand haha) with Hed Belgium laced to r45 hubs, zipp 404 and lightweight meilenstein. No flex at all and i'm a 99 kg guy who can easily push 1400 watts..

[Hexsense]

On CAAD12 i have higher max, but somehow avg is harder to keep
Do u fiind ur CAAD12 flexy especially on climbs and compared to ur carbon bikes?

That's actually opposite of what too flexible bike tends to do.
Stiffer bike generally allow higher max peak power because... well they are not flexing so power are more immediate and peak high.
But the peak can be in a too short period that it give too much feedback force to your legs and you eventually feel fatigue.
Flexing isn't always a bad thing. Bow launch a powerful arrow by store energy from flexing and launch it back in a snappy action. Similar can happen on carbon bike, flex and store energy when you push down and give it back in your dead spot where no power applied.

My Allez Sprint is indeed stiffer than my prior carbon bike. I have higher max power read out.
And i also fatigue faster because it doesn't flex (in a good way) as much as my prior carbon bike that are engineered to feel snappy too.

Giant TCR Disc got stiffen fork and reports said it felt less lively, less snappy than their flexier TCR rim brake counter part.

[petromyzon]

Check there is no brake rub, check all the bearings and chain are still in good condition, and check you are wearing the same clothing. Aerodynamics first, friction second. You won't be losing a significant amount of power to flex itself, but body position and psychology may pay a part.

I wouldn't read too much in to power data you collect unless it is back to back runs on the same day with the same wind.

[AJS914]

At my case both my bikes im comparing are exactly same weight, so i guess weight it's not a problem.. on C60 i have Bora 35 Tubs with Vittoria Corsa G+, on CAAD12 Bora 50 Tubs with Conti Sprinter. (but not sure that this difference can make such a difference in feel i have)

Swap wheels between the bikes and see if there is a change.

[RyanH]

Find a steep segment, doesn't have to be long, maybe 5 minutes or so, and ride them back to back at least twice each at the exact same avg wattage on the same day. This would ideally be done in the morning with little to no wind. Compare your times. I'd suggest doing the first round of this in the saddle and then maybe a subsequent test run out of the saddle. If there actually is a difference it's probably mechanical and not the frame.

[jlok]

I concur. I find both the CAAD10 (size 56) and 12 (size 52) were noodly when the torque is too high. Compare to some other frames like TCR Adv SL and Propel Adv SL the difference is very easy to detect.

[3Pio]

IIRC, a more flexible frame should not have a noticeable impact on time up a hill. Look elsewhere. Atmospheric conditions will have a bigger impact.

Im lucky to have mountain just where i live.. So i rode that segments many times and almost every day.. And on CAAD12 definetely im putting more effort, and beeing less effective.. Even if there is atmospheric conditions.. I compare my self against my regular friends which we rode together long time.. With C60 to outsprint them or to keep fast pace i need definetely less watts vs CAAD12.. So if there is atmospheric based, it will be for them as well.. And wont be always the same. With C60 i can easy keep fast pace.. With Caad12 i need to put much more effort (i also compare TSS at the end of ride with one and other bike).

I have 8k miles on my CAAD12 with a longest ride of 137mi/12k. 150lbs / 58cm bike. I do a ton of climbing and haven't noticed flex -- I will admit that on hard sprints I will rub the front brake with my front wheel (Ardennes SL+). I've contemplated swapping out the front fork for an Enve, but other than that I love the bike.

At my case, i feel the front end very stiff.. No rubbing of brake pads.. But feel all flex in BB area...

I find my caad 12 plenty stiff feeling up the hills, but then i havent tried a C60, so that might be even stiffer.

a slightly more flexy bottom bracket shouldn't impact the actual times too much though, as the wattage lost will be miniscule, but the feeling of sluggishness could make you slower due to psycological reasons.
i agree that it is probably atmospheric conditions or the wheels/tires making you slower, maybe even the weight difference between the bikes? (if there is any)

The best way to figure out if it's frame that feels sluggish, is to bring a friend (or a car with enough space) and take the two bikes to a short hill, then ride up with both bikes one after the other using the same wheelset (if possible)

I have luck that climb begin just 1 km from place where i live, so it's doable to try both bikes, in same day on same wheelset.. Will definetely try that this days.. But problem is that flex is detectable even not seeing the number.. I even asked a friend to try my CAAD12 on climb (he is riding XR4).. He also detected flex feeling...

Maybe it's your subconscious slowing you down on the CAAD to justify the much higher price of the C60?

I wish.. Especially when i builded CAAD12 i was telling everyone here how we dont need expensive bikes, and that probably frameset like CAAD12 is totaly enough, and other is overspending.. I still think C60 and similar we are paying much higher price then it cost to produce by big margin, but also im not ready to separate from it because of CAAD12....C60 in same time is more comfortable, and much stiffer bike then CAAD12.. And not that happy because of that I really wished to find oposite..

On CAAD12 i have higher max, but somehow avg is harder to keep
Do u fiind ur CAAD12 flexy especially on climbs and compared to ur carbon bikes?

That's actually opposite of what too flexible bike tends to do.
Stiffer bike generally allow higher max peak power because... well they are not flexing so power are more immediate and peak high.
But the peak can be in a too short period that it give too much feedback force to your legs and you eventually feel fatigue.
Flexing isn't always a bad thing. Bow launch a powerful arrow by store energy from flexing and launch it back in a snappy action. Similar can happen on carbon bike, flex and store energy when you push down and give it back in your dead spot where no power applied.

My Allez Sprint is indeed stiffer than my prior carbon bike. I have higher max power read out.
And i also fatigue faster because it doesn't flex (in a good way) as much as my prior carbon bike that are engineered to feel snappy too.

Giant TCR Disc got stiffen fork and reports said it felt less lively, less snappy than their flexier TCR rim brake counter part.

Hmm.. Interesting opionion.. Max High Power i have on CAAD12, i explain that on C60 i need less efort to keep the pace with a friends.. On CAAD12 have to push much more so maybe that why i have higher Power Max (whcih im not able to hold)...Also i feel C60 much stiffer and in same time more lively bike.. Caad12 give me that dead feeling....Also beeing static.. Applying brakes on bike and just pushing the pedals, and looking at the flex in BB area.. CAAD12 is flexing as noodle, C60 not that much doing same.. (also XR4 of my friend)..

Check there is no brake rub, check all the bearings and chain are still in good condition, and check you are wearing the same clothing. Aerodynamics first, friction second. You won't be losing a significant amount of power to flex itself, but body position and psychology may pay a part.

I wouldn't read too much in to power data you collect unless it is back to back runs on the same day with the same wind.

Definetely no brake rub (i even have more rear brake rub on C60 than on CAAD12.. But on C60 use the single pivot rear brake where i have pads closer to the rim, on CAAD12 dual pivot brakes where more spaces between pad and brake).. I swapped the groupset from C60 to CAAD12, and definetely in good condition.. Chain is almost new, and wearing same shoes, same clothes.. Maybe is position, because still need to adjust reach on CAAD12 to fit me perfect (4 mm shorter then i want at a moment).. To be sure about this, i swapped Easton EX90SLX3 bar to Deda Zero100 to match Deda Superleggera bar i have on C60, also ordered 115 mm stem which will put me in exactly same position as on C60 (ok 1mm longer )

At my case both my bikes im comparing are exactly same weight, so i guess weight it's not a problem.. on C60 i have Bora 35 Tubs with Vittoria Corsa G+, on CAAD12 Bora 50 Tubs with Conti Sprinter. (but not sure that this difference can make such a difference in feel i have)

Swap wheels between the bikes and see if there is a change.

I'll do that definetely.. Maybe, wheels are doing this (even Bora 50 should be stiffer then Bora 35).. But i'll definetely try this days switching wheels between bikes..

I concur. I find both the CAAD10 (size 56) and 12 (size 52) were noodly when the torque is too high. Compare to some other frames like TCR Adv SL and Propel Adv SL the difference is very easy to detect.

This was detected by feel of riding, or beeing slower with higher effort? Or both? (as in my case)

[3Pio]

Find a steep segment, doesn't have to be long, maybe 5 minutes or so, and ride them back to back at least twice each at the exact same avg wattage on the same day. This would ideally be done in the morning with little to no wind. Compare your times. I'd suggest doing the first round of this in the saddle and then maybe a subsequent test run out of the saddle. If there actually is a difference it's probably mechanical and not the frame.

Definetely doable since climb start just 1 km from where i live.. And definetely will do this few days in row, using exactly same wheels on bikes... Also Caad12 and C60 are almost same weight at a moment, and in mechanical terms both in perfect condition... On standing up, i feel even more flex on CAAD12...