help campagnolo chorus shifting issues

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
JoO
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 7:30 am

by JoO

I am having problems indexing my 2014 campagnolo chorus (non-embrace) on my canyon ultimate CF.

When i index the gears while being in the big rig I need to be very precise. One 1/8 turn of the barrel adjuster and it works only going up or going down the casette. When I shift to the inner ring the indexing is off.

12/29 chorus cassette (10000 K)
I rotate 3 chorus chains with KMC quicklink. The chains are waxed with parraffine. My chains are always super clean and never <0.50 mm
The rings are stronglight CT2 48/36
the housing is alligator mini i-links
liner : PTFE jagwire
gear cable:jagwire elite polished no grease
tacx derailleur pulleys
I replaced a broken spacer between cog 21 and 23 with a blue miche spacer of what I believe is the correct width.

I checked to see if the cables are crossed in the frame. I kept the front cable between my fingers and shifted the rear derailleur. I could not detect anything.

I also checked the derailleur hanger with an unior DAG. the hanger is straigth within a few mms. It is difficult to bend the hanger because it CNC'ed alluminium.
The hanger has been replaced and seems to be quite wide.
The high limit screw is almost turned in completely
The low limit screw is turned out completely

The length of the chain is the maximal length in the small-small combination
The upper jockey wheel is as close as possible to the biggest cog. When i tuns the cranks backwards the cage does not move so I assume this is OK.

What could be the cause of this problem?

alcatraz
Posts: 2101
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Sometimes cables that have a few bends don't trip the crosstest until they have enough tension. If you can place a flashlight at the entry holes by the headtube, and look in by the cable guide, you should be able to get a good visual.

Also check that your rd cable housing isn't too short and preventing the rd from reaching the smallest cogs. It gets stiffer with age so it can also appear out of nowhere.

The rd spring is weakest at the small cogs so cleaning and lubing the rd will also help to preserve the correct movement there. If you index there with a weak spring/dirty rd then your large cog indexing will be off.

If you're reusing old cables or housing make sure they are really smooth. In doubt replace. I often reuse cables and housing but I make it a rule to keep the RD cable absolutely pristine using the best quality. This i can later reuse for front mech and get a new RD cable and housing. (It's the longest cable and also with the smallest shift movements, so it's also the most important cable to have running smooth.)

I've also had it happen to me that cables have dug into the cable guides and become stuck at times. I put a piece of pvc lining and it solved it. Sometimes lining doesn't fit though.

If your guide pulley (jockey wheel) is worn, by having a crazy amount of play it's also time to replace it.

by Weenie


AJS914
Posts: 3340
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

It's probably cable drag. I had similar problems which were cured by a new Campagnolo cable set, ends perfectly cut and filed, teflon liners awled out, and all cable runs smooth. Also make sure the metal washer in the ergo lever didn't go missing. It's a little metal cable stop where the cable goes into the lever.

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Calnago
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

JoO wrote:What could be the cause of this problem?
Sorry, but seriously?
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JoO
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 7:30 am

by JoO

Calnago wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:38 am
JoO wrote:What could be the cause of this problem?
Sorry, but seriously?
I am afraid I am. I spend a long time installing these ilinks with quite some care.

It is not possible to look into the downtube because the cable stop is moulded in.
The housing at the rear derailleur makes a gentle arc.

I have put some jagwire ptfe liner in the cable guide under the bb in order to minimize friction.
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alcatraz
Posts: 2101
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

How about measuring the spacing between 25,23,21t cogs and check they are ok. Check for bent teeth.

Also check for play in the derailleur cage.

How many kms does this derailleur have?

When I wrote look I meant look at the bb cable guide, and light at the head tube. It works before the cables are clamped at the derailleurs so that the housing doesnt block the holes. If you don't want to unclamp the cables you can pull the fork and drop a light in the frame. It sounds difficult but it's an easy procedure of only taking the stem off and possibly the front brake.

JoO
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 7:30 am

by JoO

alcatraz wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:31 am
How about measuring the spacing between 25,23,21t cogs and check they are ok. Check for bent teeth.

Also check for play in the derailleur cage.

How many kms does this derailleur have?

When I wrote look I meant look at the bb cable guide, and light at the head tube. It works before the cables are clamped at the derailleurs so that the housing doesnt block the holes. If you don't want to unclamp the cables you can pull the fork and drop a light in the frame. It sounds difficult but it's an easy procedure of only taking the stem off and possibly the front brake.
The shifting hesitations are also present at the start and middle of the cassette. The spacer between 21 and 23 should not affect that?

The derailleur has about 15000 K but it is my summer bike. for winter/rain I use my other bike.

My other bike has athena. I might use it to diagnose the issue.
-change the derailleur from chorus to athena and visa versa

I could also try to:
-loosen the front derailleur cable to eliminate the cause of inner cables being crossed
-change the mini i-link housing at the RD for normal housing and see if there is an improvement.

Changing out the cassette is a bit difficult. My other bike uses miche primato 12/27 cassette ( I am not sure it has 100% the same spacing because the spacers are all the same thickness)

alcatraz
Posts: 2101
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Check for cage play. Try another guide pulley. It's just one bolt.

JoO
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 7:30 am

by JoO

quick update.
I reinstalled the the cables and verified there is nog crossing of the cables in the downtube.
Still impossible to to get the derailleur to work in both directions.
I can detect no play in the rear derailleur.
I swapped out the derailleur for an athena. Problem is stilll there.

The possible causes according to me:
-worn out cassette
-something wrong with the housing/liner

I will buy a new chorus 12/29 cassette and check if that solves the problem.
If not i will replace the housing with regular campagnolo housing

alcatraz
Posts: 2101
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

On youtube a user had similar issues on a shimano setup. After changing nearly every component only the shifter was left and lowe and behold, that was if.

Somehow the ratchet mechanism didn't stay the same over time. So it's possible to have a worn shifter. Maybe try to shift with the athena shifter?

XCProMD
Posts: 755
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Cantabria

by XCProMD

If the problem persists with the Athena der it’s definitely the housing/liner/cables

JoO
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 7:30 am

by JoO

Update:
I recabled with Campagnolo housing => marginally better?
replaced the spacers (1 cracked + 1 miche) with new spacers => not better
replaced the cassette with new one => better but not perfect, still hesitation 17->16 and 16->15
replaced the chain => not better
replaced the top pulley wheels from tacx (with bearing) to Campagnolo 'floating' pulley wheel (bushing) => almost perfect !! (with old cassette)

So the main culprit= taxc jockey wheel without float.
That is a pity because I was saving 1,5 precious watts (according to friction facts)

I guess all little things add up (jockey wheels, cassette wear, housing,...)

Should i also consider cleaning the internals of my shifter (5 years old , mainly ridden in dry conditions)?
Or o I run the risk of making it worse by overhauling them? (i have overhauled my old centaur 10 shifters in the past on the cyclocross bike)

Catagory6
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:36 am

by Catagory6

JoO wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:06 pm
Update:
I recabled with Campagnolo housing => marginally better?
replaced the spacers (1 cracked + 1 miche) with new spacers => not better
replaced the cassette with new one => better but not perfect, still hesitation 17->16 and 16->15
replaced the chain => not better
replaced the top pulley wheels from tacx (with bearing) to Campagnolo 'floating' pulley wheel (bushing) => almost perfect !! (with old cassette)

So the main culprit= taxc jockey wheel without float.
That is a pity because I was saving 1,5 precious watts (according to friction facts)

I guess all little things add up (jockey wheels, cassette wear, housing,...)

Should i also consider cleaning the internals of my shifter (5 years old , mainly ridden in dry conditions)?
Or o I run the risk of making it worse by overhauling them? (i have overhauled my old centaur 10 shifters in the past on the cyclocross bike)
flushing out with wd40 on my pre-15 chorus shifters seems to do the trick for me, when they get a bit stuck

Butcher
Shop Owner
Posts: 922
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 am

by Butcher

Not that this is an answer but that is the main reason I purchased EPS. Friction is the worst enemy with mechanical shifting and the best amunition is electrons.

alcatraz
Posts: 2101
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

I think pulleys with float only mask some other underlying issue in your case. There is a mismatch between derailleur and shifter.

by Weenie


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