Cannondale SuperSix vs Canyon Ultimate vs Giant TCR vs Trek Emonda vs Cervelo R5 vs Focus Izalco vs...

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Karvalo
Posts: 665
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

Right, but IIRC you have a documented history of not being able to descend with various different well known and well regarded products. Not trying to be insulting, just providing context. It may well be that anything which provides a different feel knocks you out of your comfort zone, and confidence is far and away more important than almost any geometry changes when it comes to how fast a given rider can corner a given bike.

Personally I think the R5 is one of the two best high speed handling bikes I've ridden, though there are plenty of different approaches to cornering.
diegogarcia wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:31 pm
Riding friends noticed it, noticed me backing off and saw the bike pulling me across the road.
100% not how it works. If you're backing off and drifting wide then it is you pulling the frame, period.

by Weenie


diegogarcia
Posts: 550
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:31 pm

by diegogarcia

Karvalo wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:52 pm
Right, but IIRC you have a documented history of not being able to descend with various different well known and well regarded products. Not trying to be insulting, just providing context. It may well be that anything which provides a different feel knocks you out of your comfort zone, and confidence is far and away more important than almost any geometry changes when it comes to how fast a given rider can corner a given bike.

Personally I think the R5 is one of the two best high speed handling bikes I've ridden, though there are plenty of different approaches to cornering.
No, 404's where the only other thing that shit me up. Not had a problem since I sacked those overrated piles of crap off.

Along with the R5. We are all different and experience different feelings and handlings from a bike. For me, it was a poor descender. Nothing suspicious.

Just putting it out there. Cheers.

Already regretting adding my thoughts as once again the hate will start... :noidea: I backed it off as the bike pulled wide period. You could drill the TCR into every corner. Much better frame in that sense. And only my opinion. As before in context, none of us a pro riders are we. Cheers.

Karvalo
Posts: 665
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

diegogarcia wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:55 pm
No, 404's where the only other thing that shit me up. Not had a problem since I sacked those overrated piles of crap off.
Exactly. There's nothing wrong with 404s, and they can be descended on at speed with zero issues, but because you got shook up on them you couldn't descend well. It's a psychological thing. Again, I'm not being insulting, just stating how it works. I once got cut up by a car overtaking another uphill on a hairpin when I was braking to turn in and took a small spill on the first day of a mountain holiday. I was so bad at descending for the rest of the trip I was embarrassed to be seen on a bike. Could not commit to a line with any speed without feeling like I was going drift straight off the outside of the hill. Nothing to do with the bike though, it was me dragging it there.
Along with the R5. We are all different and experience different feelings and handlings from a bike. For me, it was a poor descender. Nothing suspicious.
Right, you were a poor descender on it, but it's not a poor descender.

diegogarcia
Posts: 550
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:31 pm

by diegogarcia

Karvalo wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:09 pm
diegogarcia wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:55 pm
No, 404's where the only other thing that shit me up. Not had a problem since I sacked those overrated piles of crap off.
Exactly. There's nothing wrong with 404s, and they can be descended on at speed with zero issues, but because you got shook up on them you couldn't descend well. It's a psychological thing. Again, I'm not being insulting, just stating how it works. I once got cut up by a car overtaking another uphill on a hairpin when I was braking to turn in and took a small spill on the first day of a mountain holiday. I was so bad at descending for the rest of the trip I was embarrassed to be seen on a bike.
Along with the R5. We are all different and experience different feelings and handlings from a bike. For me, it was a poor descender. Nothing suspicious.
Right, you were a poor descender on it, but it's not a poor descender.
OK but do bare in mind I ride in and around Dartmoor; Devon with 20% + climbs and descents and sheer sharp fast descents that I could not / cannot afford to get wrong. Here is the local sportive which many a visitor will crash on.

https://www.dartmoorclassic.co.uk/

The TCR, my F8, my old Defy SL, my Emonda SLR, my S5, my Propel never exhibted this problem with my skillset. So I agree based on my technique, it was poor / dangerous and moved on. Lets all take some joy in the fact some can be honest enough to say a dream bike did not work in context. Better off sold than dead.

Karvalo
Posts: 665
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

diegogarcia wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:14 pm
OK but do bare in mind I ride in and around Dartmoor; Devon with 20% + climbs and descents and sheer sharp fast descents that I could not / cannot afford to get wrong. Here is the local sportive which many a visitor will crash on.
I know you do - and I lived in Exeter for 5 years mate :wink: There is not a single tiny back road on the moor that I haven't been up, down or sideways. Even the ones the Google Maps car doesn't know.

And again, that's where confidence has the biggest effect. If you lived somewhere easier, your loss of confidence wouldn't be anywhere near as noticeable.
The TCR, my F8, my old Defy SL, my Emonda SLR, my S5, my Propel never exhibted this problem with my skillset.
Surely they did when you had the Zipps in :P

diegogarcia
Posts: 550
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:31 pm

by diegogarcia

Karvalo wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:28 pm
diegogarcia wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:14 pm
OK but do bare in mind I ride in and around Dartmoor; Devon with 20% + climbs and descents and sheer sharp fast descents that I could not / cannot afford to get wrong. Here is the local sportive which many a visitor will crash on.
I know you do - and I lived in Exeter for 5 years mate :wink: There is not a single tiny back road on the moor that I haven't been up, down or sideways. Even the ones the Google Maps car doesn't know.

And again, that's where confidence has the biggest effect. If you lived somewhere easier, your loss of confidence wouldn't be anywhere near as noticeable.
The TCR, my F8, my old Defy SL, my Emonda SLR, my S5, my Propel never exhibted this problem with my skillset.
Surely they did when you had the Zipps in :P
Ah the paradox. You'll know what a dump it is then :mrgreen: . Too much traffic, too many grockles, green lane cycling and very tricky terrain with 40% being water. I rue the day my Mrs. head teaching job brought us here :smartass: but it has taught me how to climb well I suppose. Did not keep the 404's long. Running Bontrager XXX 47mm and wow, what a wheelset. :thumbup:

Karvalo
Posts: 665
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

Traffic's mostly on the famous roads, and the one's hardly anyone knows are way better anyway. Cycling there's as good as you'll find anywhere!

Kazyole
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:45 am
Location: NYC

by Kazyole

FWIW, I ride a 2015 cervelo R5. Have been riding it since 2015. It's a 48cm set up pretty long and low. Descends like it's on rails. Best frame I've ever ridden.

Different people like different things. And if something feels off, it can feel jarring and ruin your confidence. Even a minor difference in setup. Recovering from an injury maybe 5 years back on a different frame, I moved my stem up 10mm. Couldn't corner worth shit, had zero confidence. Switched back and was totally fine. Either you had a bike that should never have made it out of QC because there was something seriously wrong with it, or the frame felt different to what you were used to and it messed with you psychologically. Maybe just a small geometry difference that was different from what you're used to in a way you didn't prefer.

But a poor descender the R5 is not. And I've never heard, experienced, or read a criticism of the frame pulling in corners. Quite to the contrary. Pretty much everyone I know who rides and R series frame comments on how stable it feels and how confidence inspiring it is.

For me, so much so that I'm considering buying a NOS Cervelo RCA in the never-ending pursuit of a lighter bike

ND4SPD
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 4:10 am

by ND4SPD

zappafile123 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:41 am
I have ridden it briefly - see my previous comments on this thread. It is slightly better, but not night and day different in its ride quality. That view is commensurate with published reviews. Overall the Evo is a very well balanced ride - pretty comfy, pretty stiff, quite light, handles well. I just find riding along it doesn't have that 'alive' feeling, that you're hurtling along, that you're faster than you actually are. It works and thats it. It doesnt inspire. Its plain old 'good'. Its not special, but at the same time, it is one of the better framesets on the market.
That's good enough for me :)
robeambro wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:25 pm

Double check tire clearance, and if you can run 25 or even 28mm tires, then none of the bikes you listed will be uncomfortable.
Once you've done that, honestly, if this is how you feel about weight and aero, ALL of those bikes will do just fine*, and you should speak the one you like the looks of the most. Which I presume will be the SS Evo.

*assuming you will fit on all of them fine
Most of the newer frames can run 28 mm or even wider tyres...

Yes, I'm leaning towards SS EVO HM...
Lewn777 wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:19 am
Holy hell, you'd need to be a cycling journo to have ridden all those!
My opnion is weak as I haven't ridden all those bikes but IMHO would opt for the Emonda or SuperSix.
Ridden:I really like the Emonda for climbing and it's good on descents. Fuji SL is a nice too framset too and worth considering.
Reputation: I rented a CAAD12 and loved it so a Supersix would obviously be on my list, and the TCR and Canyon get rave reviews as well. Rented two S-Works SL5s, felt a bit dead and stiff but very capable, SL6 could be much better. I rented a Cervelo R3 and I didn't really get on with the handling on corners and at high speeds, but the R5 could also be better.
If I rode them all, there wouldn't be this thread :) I was hoping for the first hand experience from the owners...

I think every bike mentioned is great, and some maybe insignificant differences could be the key factor for deciding, like name, colour, etc...

Fuji SL, yes also very nice bike...

Interesting that about R3, diegogarcia is saying the same thing for R5...

hambini
Posts: 479
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:13 am
Location: Bristol UK / Cologne, Germany

by hambini

Lewn777 wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:57 am
wheelsONfire wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:04 am
I would start off by looking at geometry. Second to that, ride feel.
According to Hambini Cannondale are the least precise manufacturered framesets.
Second was Cervelo. Don't if it matters, but anyway!??
Hambini says 'you can't judge the quality of bearings with a spin test, it's how they act under load' then uploads a video of him doing a 'spin test' video of his own BB.
He also says Cannondale have the least well machined BB, but Luchner says they have very well laid up carbon ((amongst the best) (from cutting up a damaged frame)), and from my own experience have excellent geo.
He also says SRAM have garbage quality crank machining tolerances. Yet the 4 Truvativ and SRAM cranksets and shifters I've owned over the last 10-15 years have worked flawlessly.

It reminds me of an engineer I knew when I was a kid. He worked on high perforamce cars and irrationally hated on Lotus because one time a door fell of when he was working on one. Everyone is perfectly entitled to an opinion, but you're just as entitled to disagree. :thumbup:
Obviously, you have read the description on the video?

"I generally don't like doing spin tests, they are a poor indicator of bearing performance but here's my neglected bike and bottom bracket when I did my twice yearly clean. This spin test highlights the benefits of good bearing alignment more than the friction in the bearings. "

And for the other remarks. Get yourself something to measure with and see how they compare. My comments are based on numbers they are not based on luck like "my shifters lasted 15 years therefore they must be well within tolerance"
Hambini Aeronautical Engineer, Ex NASA, ex Lockheed - views expressed are my own...
Add me ON TWITTER!
Aerodynamic Masterclass in bicycle wheels
I fixed the bottom bracket from hell

dim
Posts: 523
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:25 am
Location: Cambridge UK

by dim

I had an older Giant TCR .... it was a very fast bike

I wanted to upgrade, (bought 2nd hand) and my first choice was a newer TCR SL but I ended up getting a Trek Emonda SL6 with Di2 because it was a good deal (its also a good climbing bike and fast )

my next bike might well be a TCR SL ... I like them (an all rounder .... fast on the hills and fast on the flats)
Trek Emonda SL6
Miyata One Thousand

User avatar
Lewn777
Posts: 748
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

hambini wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:08 pm
Lewn777 wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:57 am
wheelsONfire wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:04 am
I would start off by looking at geometry. Second to that, ride feel.
According to Hambini Cannondale are the least precise manufacturered framesets.
Second was Cervelo. Don't if it matters, but anyway!??
Hambini says 'you can't judge the quality of bearings with a spin test, it's how they act under load' then uploads a video of him doing a 'spin test' video of his own BB.
He also says Cannondale have the least well machined BB, but Luchner says they have very well laid up carbon ((amongst the best) (from cutting up a damaged frame)), and from my own experience have excellent geo.
He also says SRAM have garbage quality crank machining tolerances. Yet the 4 Truvativ and SRAM cranksets and shifters I've owned over the last 10-15 years have worked flawlessly.

It reminds me of an engineer I knew when I was a kid. He worked on high perforamce cars and irrationally hated on Lotus because one time a door fell of when he was working on one. Everyone is perfectly entitled to an opinion, but you're just as entitled to disagree. :thumbup:
Obviously, you have read the description on the video?

"I generally don't like doing spin tests, they are a poor indicator of bearing performance but here's my neglected bike and bottom bracket when I did my twice yearly clean. This spin test highlights the benefits of good bearing alignment more than the friction in the bearings. "

And for the other remarks. Get yourself something to measure with and see how they compare. My comments are based on numbers they are not based on luck like "my shifters lasted 15 years therefore they must be well within tolerance"
I live in China and everyday there is someone uploading a new video to Chinese cycling social media of some guy spinning some ceramic hyrid bearing that been manufactured here to somehow prove that their bearings are better because they spin for longer when not under load than steel bearings. I keep telling people that it's meaningless but the fallacies just carry on and on. So I was disappointed to see your video.

Also you seem to take measurements and use them as evidence for anti-SRAM pro-Shimano campaigning when Shimano have a massively larger share of the market already. I mean surely its better just to promote the brand you like than be negative about one you dislike, as it just alienates people. Even to a point I agree, for example I find Shimano rim and disk brakes far superior to SRAM offerings.

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Lewn777
Posts: 748
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

diegogarcia wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:55 pm
Karvalo wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:52 pm
Right, but IIRC you have a documented history of not being able to descend with various different well known and well regarded products. Not trying to be insulting, just providing context. It may well be that anything which provides a different feel knocks you out of your comfort zone, and confidence is far and away more important than almost any geometry changes when it comes to how fast a given rider can corner a given bike.

Personally I think the R5 is one of the two best high speed handling bikes I've ridden, though there are plenty of different approaches to cornering.
No, 404's where the only other thing that shit me up. Not had a problem since I sacked those overrated piles of crap off.

Along with the R5. We are all different and experience different feelings and handlings from a bike. For me, it was a poor descender. Nothing suspicious.

Just putting it out there. Cheers.

Already regretting adding my thoughts as once again the hate will start... :noidea: I backed it off as the bike pulled wide period. You could drill the TCR into every corner. Much better frame in that sense. And only my opinion. As before in context, none of us a pro riders are we. Cheers.
I agree as my experiences with the R3 are similar to yours with the R5. There is something 'unusual' about the Cervelo R frameset that's a bit different to other framesets. Bad? Well no, it might actually suit some people better, but for me all the other bikes I've ridden are conisitently quite similar that require a similar riding style but the R frameset is one that requires different kinds of inputs in corners. Maybe not to my taste. My advice to the OP about whether to buy the R5 would be that it's a bike you should try before you buy. I'm not saying it isn't a good bike, but for me I'd probably be happier with a TCR, Emonda or SuperSix.

diegogarcia
Posts: 550
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:31 pm

by diegogarcia

Lewn777 wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:52 am
diegogarcia wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:55 pm
Karvalo wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:52 pm
Right, but IIRC you have a documented history of not being able to descend with various different well known and well regarded products. Not trying to be insulting, just providing context. It may well be that anything which provides a different feel knocks you out of your comfort zone, and confidence is far and away more important than almost any geometry changes when it comes to how fast a given rider can corner a given bike.

Personally I think the R5 is one of the two best high speed handling bikes I've ridden, though there are plenty of different approaches to cornering.
No, 404's where the only other thing that shit me up. Not had a problem since I sacked those overrated piles of crap off.

Along with the R5. We are all different and experience different feelings and handlings from a bike. For me, it was a poor descender. Nothing suspicious.

Just putting it out there. Cheers.

Already regretting adding my thoughts as once again the hate will start... :noidea: I backed it off as the bike pulled wide period. You could drill the TCR into every corner. Much better frame in that sense. And only my opinion. As before in context, none of us a pro riders are we. Cheers.
I agree as my experiences with the R3 are similar to yours with the R5. There is something 'unusual' about the Cervelo R frameset that's a bit different to other framesets. Bad? Well no, it might actually suit some people better, but for me all the other bikes I've ridden are conisitently quite similar that require a similar riding style but the R frameset is one that requires different kinds of inputs in corners. Maybe not to my taste. My advice to the OP about whether to buy the R5 would be that it's a bike you should try before you buy. I'm not saying it isn't a good bike, but for me I'd probably be happier with a TCR, Emonda or SuperSix.
Great - glad someone else out there has experienced and understands what I am trying to say. All I can say it I always refer to the movie Herbie and how that car cornered. But I am not a bike builder, nor frame designer and I can only pressume that the revision of the bike lead to this. I re-refer to the cyclist review. Interestingly, I bought a lightly used Emonda SLR after selling the R5 and I am back to confident descending leaning into the apex and letting the bike flow round. A lot of the time the R5 dragged the rider off the apex, without using the brakes. I tried revising my technique and would go wide to come back in, but just not what I wanted from a machine. BUT as ever, happy to understand and note / respect that others love it. Credit due.

Watch here. 2 mins .45 in !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XWufUZ1mxQ

by Weenie


hambini
Posts: 479
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:13 am
Location: Bristol UK / Cologne, Germany

by hambini

Lewn777 wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:38 am
I live in China and everyday there is someone uploading a new video to Chinese cycling social media of some guy spinning some ceramic hyrid bearing that been manufactured here to somehow prove that their bearings are better because they spin for longer when not under load than steel bearings. I keep telling people that it's meaningless but the fallacies just carry on and on. So I was disappointed to see your video.

Also you seem to take measurements and use them as evidence for anti-SRAM pro-Shimano campaigning when Shimano have a massively larger share of the market already. I mean surely its better just to promote the brand you like than be negative about one you dislike, as it just alienates people. Even to a point I agree, for example I find Shimano rim and disk brakes far superior to SRAM offerings.
I uploaded the spin test video because I had lots of people asking for it. So I gave the people what they wanted along with the caveat to say it was not a good indicator.

For the tolerances, I am not pro Shimano or anti SRAM. I am pro good engineering and when manufacturers have cut corners to satisfy accountants, it really does my head in. That was a choice they made and therefore rile engineering purists like myself. In the grand scheme of things, my opinion is not going to make a blind bit of difference to SRAM sales figures so I don't think they will care at all.

Hambini
Hambini Aeronautical Engineer, Ex NASA, ex Lockheed - views expressed are my own...
Add me ON TWITTER!
Aerodynamic Masterclass in bicycle wheels
I fixed the bottom bracket from hell

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