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Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:58 pm
by neeb
I know that these are optimised to be able to cope with both disc and rim setups, but are there any tangible improvements in shifting over the immediately previous non-HO models in rim setups?

Some of the blurb talks about larger upper jockey wheels wrapping the chain better and tweaked geometry, but it's not clear if this is old blurb or HO specific blurb..

I also read somewhere that the new 12sp groups have new improved cables that are backwardly compatible with 11sp but I can't see them for sale anywhere.

Trying to squeeze better shifting out of a mechanical 11sp Record group that's being recalcitrant after having tried everything else.. (hanger alignment, H screw adjustment, cable friction reduction as far as is possible, etc..). A minuscule improvement might make all the difference!

**LATER EDIT - the shifting problems were being caused by a stiff rear mech upper pivot (damaged/worn) exacerbated by a non-standard setup (sram cassette).**

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:00 pm
by AJS914

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:00 pm
by Weenie

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:33 pm
by ParisCarbon
Youch... I always thought colorado cyclist was super expensive, but even from bike24 who has one listed they are still listed at 80 euros!

Try your google search as Campagnolo CG-FRD700 A few places in Europe popped up, but at the 80 euro range...

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:07 pm
by AJS914
It's too bad we can't just buy the cables rather than the whole kit.

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:25 am
by ParisCarbon
According to the Campy spares catalog (Part B), the derailleur shift kit is available... its part number is 10-CG-CS200

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:30 am
by Mr.Gib
neeb wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:58 pm

Trying to squeeze better shifting out of a mechanical 11sp Record group that's being recalcitrant after having tried everything else.. (hanger alignment, H screw adjustment, cable friction reduction as far as is possible, etc..). A minuscule improvement might make all the difference!
Let me guess, hesitating in the middle of the cassette? If you dial the hesitation out then you get overshifting on the two biggest cogs?

I switched to an HO derailleur. In my case shifting improved over the shorter cage but the problem persists, just not as severe. Like you I have done everything, change multiple parts, shifter innards, involved superior, experienced Campy mechanics, etc. and it cannot be fixed. It is acceptable but just barely. I have seen comments to the effect Campagnolo rear deraileurs simply do not get along well with the bigger range cassettes. I use 11-29. My guess is different cables will not help assuming you are using good stuff in the first place. My frame has external routing and easy cable routing so it's certainly not a cable thing in my case. The problem is simply faulty indexing which I now regard as an exclusive Campagnolo feature. My application is on a rim brake bike so no comment on disc - is the chain line that different?

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:33 am
by AJS914
Graeme has posted a few times that the medium cage rear derailleur actually shift better with the 11/12-29 cassettes even though Campy specs a short cage.

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:52 pm
by joeyb1000
I’ve had the original 11s, non-HO and HO.

The “embrace” generation shifts better than the original version, but thederailleur hanger needs to be perfectly aligned. HO is slightly better (Graeme attributes this to a stronger upper knuckle).

There’s no vantage to the short cage, except weight, regardless of cassette.

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:32 pm
by Alexandrumarian
I too have some mid cassette hesitation on 11-32 with short cage nonHO and internal routing. BUT, my hanger was never aligned (built it as it came from the warehouse) and bike went through a number of crashes. The derailleur is worn enough to show some play in the upper pivot. I noticed that the hesitation is intermitent. One ride it doesn't happen. Another, it comes and goes. More definite lever push would make the shift happen vs mushy hand movement which triggers a stuttering shift. As for tension, I incresed it until it started to overshift from 9th to 10th then backed it one click or two.

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:51 pm
by bm0p700f
You can fit the RD-RE900 jockey wheels to any of the older 11 speed derailleurs and that helps.

the new cables are useful for 12 speed and for those with 10/11 speed set ups that has tighter bends due to cable routing. I am one of the few retailers listing them. they are not cheap and only need to be used if you have an issue that is not resolved by a fresh cableset or properly routed cables.

As for intermitant shifting. It cant be faulty indexing as is not intermitant for everyone, it might be faulty shifter or play in the RD though. I presume the obvious - chain wear is ruled out.

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:31 pm
by neeb
A lot of interesting replies, thanks!

Firstly, I should confess that I'm using a SRAM Red cassette on this setup (11-26), which possibly isn't helping, but the shifting had the same issues to a lesser degree with a Campagnolo cassette so I don't think that's the real problem, especially as the shifting is OK on another Campagnolo equiped bike using the same wheel/cassette

I was comparing the shifting side by side this afternoon between this bike and another one that shifts perfectly and has the same sized chainrings and very similar sized cassette. The bike with the problems has Record 11sp circa 2015 (pre-HO) with the SRAM cassette, the other bike has an original 1st generation (2008) 11sp Record groupset with an updated right shifter body (the latest version before the 2014 revamp). Actually this latter combination works brilliantly on this particular bike (a steel frame with external cable routing), because the rear derailleur parallelogram spring is softer but the cables run perfectly smoothly, so the shifting has a wonderful light feel when moving to larger sprockets.. (but I digress!)

The shifting problems are similar to what you get with cable friction (except that it's much worse when in the big chainring- see below) - if I loosen the tension enough to get reliable shifts from larger to smaller sprockets in the larger and middle cogs, then the shifting from smaller to larger cogs needs an extra nudge to activate the shift, especially in the first half of the cassette (i.e. the smaller cogs, although the shift from the smallest to 2nd smallest is fine).

Interestingly, it is much worse when in the big chainring... And I noticed comparing the two bikes that if the H screw is similarly adjusted on both to have (say) a 5mm gap between sprocket and jockey wheel when on the small chainring and largest sprocket, when I shift to the large chainring this gap increases much more on the bike with the newer 11sp mech, due to greater spring tension in the hanger bolt pivot... This means that the chain doesn't seem to wrap the sprockets as well.

Weirdly, if I tighten the derailleur fastening bolt enough, it interferes with the hanger bolt pivot spring function, actually improving the shifting (although leading to a slack chain in the smallest sprocket / smallest chainring combo). I can't help feeling that this shouldn't be happening - I don't use a torque wrench to tighten this particular bolt because I've never been able to find a T25 bit that fits into that recessed hole, but I'm pretty sure the pivot spring starts to seize up before the torque is at the recommended 10-12 Nm..


An obvious next step would be to try a SRAM chain to go with the SRAM cassette in the hope that the presumably better optimised ramps might help, but intuition tells me that if I could just get that hanger bolt pivot spring to pull a bit less things would work much better!

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:17 am
by AJS914
IME, intermitant shifting problems are from cable drag problems - often exaserbated by internal routing in bars or other tight places.

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:45 am
by MyM3Coupe
neeb wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:58 pm
Trying to squeeze better shifting out of a mechanical 11sp Record group. .
Switch to Dura Ace 9100 Mechanical. It blows Campagnolo away.

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:27 am
by XCProMD
My experience is quite the opposite. I’m getting rid of Shimano entirely this year.

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:27 am
by Weenie

Re: Campagnolo HO 11sp rear derailleurs

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:10 am
by robertbb
There's a silent 't' in Shi.mano

The groupthink around Campy 11 2015+ is mind boggling. I wonder if these people have ever ridden a bike with a properly set up Campy group. I'd chose it over any other mechanical or electronic groupset any day of the week.