SRAM Etap playing with Etap AXS

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
solarider
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:08 pm

by solarider

Has anybody tried to mate Etap Gen 1 shifters to a Gen 2 AXS mech?

Appreciate you might lose the ability to use the app, but I have a perfectly decent set of levers and disc brake calipers and I just can't justify new shifters and brakes (that are identical to the Gen 1 version BTW).

With rim brakes, at least you had the ability to just change levers and keep your existing calipers. For the moment at least SRAM aren't giving you that option and you have to buy a set of brakes you don't need. Coupled with them pushing a full groupset on you and launching a disposable power meter, the new group isn't a great exercise in sustainability!

In theory the brain is in the mech and the levers just send a signal to move 'up' or 'down'. They say officially that there is no backwards compatibility, but I just wondered if anybody with access to both has been able to verify that? Do you work in a bike shop with bikes on the shopfloor with both fitted that you could work side by side? Are you one of the lucky few to actually have a set of your own?

Karvalo
Posts: 326
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

solarider wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:44 am
In theory the brain is in the mech and the levers just send a signal to move 'up' or 'down'.
Right, but they send the signal in a different language. It's like the lever is saying 'Up' but the mech needs to hear 'Arriba', y'know?

by Weenie


Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Not compatible in any way shape or form.
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izza
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:03 pm

by izza

I’m looking to upgrade to AXS.

They have done a good job in stopping people save money by mixing and matching.

1. Different protocol so you can’t use old levers

2. If you could use 11 speed chainrings with 12 speed chain, the difference in front rings is 13. Only way of using old Quarq and FD set up is 52 and 39 but they have different BCD.

Presumably if you wait someone like Absolute Black will come to the rescue of older Quarq meters. Or use Shimano.

3. New cassettes need new hub body.

Looks like I’ve got a lot of Etap to sell.

The only bits that are compatible .... the batteries. The bits SRAM have been the most problematic. Go figure.



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gurk700
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:40 pm

by gurk700

izza wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:05 am
I’m looking to upgrade to AXS.

They have done a good job in stopping people save money by mixing and matching.

1. Different protocol so you can’t use old levers

2. If you could use 11 speed chainrings with 12 speed chain, the difference in front rings is 13. Only way of using old Quarq and FD set up is 52 and 39 but they have different BCD.

Presumably if you wait someone like Absolute Black will come to the rescue of older Quarq meters. Or use Shimano.

3. New cassettes need new hub body.

Looks like I’ve got a lot of Etap to sell.

The only bits that are compatible .... the batteries. The bits SRAM have been the most problematic. Go figure.



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More old etap for me. I'll buy your old etap for dirt cheap :) :beerchug:

bikeboy1tr
Posts: 255
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

You can likely get away with using 11sp rings with the 12sp chain as the worst that can happen is the chain drops inbetween the two rings when you shift from big to small which is no biggie as you just shift the rear one way or other and reshift front if it doesnt pick up on its own. I have in the past used 11sp chain on my 10sp rings with no issues. When I was doing it with the 10sp chain on the 9sp rings it was dropping the chain inbetween when I was in the middle of the block on the rear.
If you have used Absolute Black rings together you will see that they have a condiderable gap between the two and they are compatible with 9,10 and 11sp setup. At least that is how they mount up on my DA9000. I was getting chain drop inbetween frequently which not a big deal but then I found that mixing a Rotor inner with Absolute Black outer decreased the gap enough to eliminate the issue.
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"-Albert Einstein
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
2014 Norco Threshold Disc Brake
2012 Time RXRS Ulteam Rim Brake
2008 Time VXR Rim Brake
2006 Ridley Crosswind Rim Brake

izza
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:03 pm

by izza

Haven’t checked the full Absolute black range but getting the 13 teeth difference and BCD is the issue. The depth of the FD is the big limit not the width.


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RussellS
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:31 am

by RussellS

solarider wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:44 am
In theory the brain is in the mech and the levers just send a signal to move 'up' or 'down'.
But, is the lever saying "UP" one or two or three gears. And "DOWN" one or two or three gears. Or like with mechanical is it saying "UP 3.85 mm" and "DOWN 3.85 mm" with 11 speed. And "UP 3.43 mm" and "DOWN 3.43 mm" with 12 speed. Just making up the mm numbers. With mechanical the AMOUNT of up and down is controlled by the lever. The derailleur does not control the amount of movement. That is controlled by how far apart the clicks in the lever are. It MIGHT be the same with electronic shifters too. The lever determines how many millimeters the derailleur moves up or down. The derailleur just moves in an arc. The derailleur does not control how far it moves except by the limit screws. So an 11 speed shifter will tell the 12 speed derailleur to move too far on every shift. Even if they speak the same language, as pointed out by another that may not be the case.

robertbb
Posts: 742
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

Back in the day (circa 2000 - 2006) I was involved pretty heavily in the open source movement with various projects (GNU/Linux, Gnome, OpenOffice).

The (very smart) people involved in those projects saw the writing on the wall through the MS antitrust years. I remember Richard Stallman telling me that since the dawn of time, publishers have been looking for ways to charge every single person that reads a book. Or even charging the original purchaser each time they read it...

This was before Kindle...

When companies can:

- Lock people into file formats only their own software can work with
- Charge a subscription model for ongoing access, support and/or compatibility
- Discourage users from leaving the "ecosystem"

The consumer gets boned.

Not long before the bike industry goes this way.

I get that prior to 11 speed, we were pretty much stuck with whatever "vendor" we had chosen. But 11 speed brought unprecedented compatibility and this is a good thing.

That time is now over.

Wait until they start embedding chips/sensors in sprockets, chains, cranks/rings... and expect to be unable to tweak, tune or mix-n-match. Wait to be charged for "premium" shift experience... or simply for support. Only "authorised shops" will have the tools and electronic interfaces to support your equipment. Look what happned with the automotive industry. Already there was a power meter (forget which one) that went out with fully functional hardware but which required a further digital purchase to "unlock" extra features.

Might seem far fetched but these days, no industry is immune.

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mattyNor
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:18 pm

by mattyNor

RussellS wrote:
solarider wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:44 am
In theory the brain is in the mech and the levers just send a signal to move 'up' or 'down'.
But, is the lever saying "UP" one or two or three gears. And "DOWN" one or two or three gears. Or like with mechanical is it saying "UP 3.85 mm" and "DOWN 3.85 mm" with 11 speed. And "UP 3.43 mm" and "DOWN 3.43 mm" with 12 speed. Just making up the mm numbers. With mechanical the AMOUNT of up and down is controlled by the lever. The derailleur does not control the amount of movement. That is controlled by how far apart the clicks in the lever are. It MIGHT be the same with electronic shifters too. The lever determines how many millimeters the derailleur moves up or down. The derailleur just moves in an arc. The derailleur does not control how far it moves except by the limit screws. So an 11 speed shifter will tell the 12 speed derailleur to move too far on every shift. Even if they speak the same language, as pointed out by another that may not be the case.
You can't use 11s rings with 12s Sram unfortunately apparently they slightly increased the size of the roller links in the chain. After trying to set up a Thm crank with Absolute Black rings and 12s axs group it just doesn't work. The chain catches on the rings because it's just slightly too big to mesh properly. People like to call Shimano evil but Sram have really locked you into the whole system with this generation.

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tabl10s
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:40 am

by tabl10s

Nefarious86 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:36 am
Not compatible in any way shape or form.
Can you use the FD/RD with an 11sp set up(including chain)? Don't care about 12sp, but I want the connectivity.
2016 Orbea Orca OMR:

15.0lbs/6.804kg.

2013 Wilier Zero.7:

13.02lbs/5.906kg.

2016 Rca:

11.07lbs/5.048kg.

2015 Pinarello F8(build in-process).

izza
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:03 pm

by izza

tabl10s wrote:
Nefarious86 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:36 am
Not compatible in any way shape or form.
Can you use the FD/RD with an 11sp set up(including chain)? Don't care about 12sp, but I want the connectivity.
FD - Yes. It’s my understanding that the later 11sp Etap FD’s already has the 12sp motor in it. That came to me indirectly from a SRAM insider. Even if Chinese whispers then for cost saving I can see it makes sense from manufacturing cost perspective.

RD - just like mechanical it probably won’t work as spacing is different between cogs.


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tabl10s
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:40 am

by tabl10s

izza wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:28 am
tabl10s wrote:
Nefarious86 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:36 am
Not compatible in any way shape or form.
Can you use the FD/RD with an 11sp set up(including chain)? Don't care about 12sp, but I want the connectivity.
FD - Yes. It’s my understanding that the later 11sp Etap FD’s already has the 12sp motor in it. That came to me indirectly from a SRAM insider. Even if Chinese whispers then for cost saving I can see it makes sense from manufacturing cost perspective.

RD - just like mechanical it probably won’t work as spacing is different between cogs.


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Is there a way to tell what batch of FD's have the upgrade?
2016 Orbea Orca OMR:

15.0lbs/6.804kg.

2013 Wilier Zero.7:

13.02lbs/5.906kg.

2016 Rca:

11.07lbs/5.048kg.

2015 Pinarello F8(build in-process).

Nefarious86
Moderator
Posts: 2755
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 4:57 am
Contact:

by Nefarious86

izza wrote:
tabl10s wrote:
Nefarious86 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:36 am
Not compatible in any way shape or form.
Can you use the FD/RD with an 11sp set up(including chain)? Don't care about 12sp, but I want the connectivity.
FD - Yes. It’s my understanding that the later 11sp Etap FD’s already has the 12sp motor in it. That came to me indirectly from a SRAM insider. Even if Chinese whispers then for cost saving I can see it makes sense from manufacturing cost perspective.

RD - just like mechanical it probably won’t work as spacing is different between cogs.


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It may have the same motor but the communication protocol is completely different. The 12s shifters and mechs will not mix and match with 11s components.

Why is this so hard for people to understand? They have made 12s it's own ecosystem, the chains chainrings casettes are all incompatible with 11s gear, the stepper motor and programming in the rear mech sets the shifting so the 11 wont do 12 and the 12 wont do 11 and the front mech wont talk to the different series mech new to old or old to new, there is no mixing and matching except with other AXS specific products in terms of communication and the road chain/cassete wont work with the eagle chain/casette and vise versa due to roller diameters etc.


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izza
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:03 pm

by izza

tabl10s wrote:
izza wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:28 am
tabl10s wrote:
Nefarious86 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:36 am
Not compatible in any way shape or form.
Can you use the FD/RD with an 11sp set up(including chain)? Don't care about 12sp, but I want the connectivity.
FD - Yes. It’s my understanding that the later 11sp Etap FD’s already has the 12sp motor in it. That came to me indirectly from a SRAM insider. Even if Chinese whispers then for cost saving I can see it makes sense from manufacturing cost perspective.

RD - just like mechanical it probably won’t work as spacing is different between cogs.


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Is there a way to tell what batch of FD's have the upgrade?
Not that I know. The casing is the same. However, there are threads on here and other forums of chain dropping. I’ve experienced the same and found later FD’s need to be set up so precisely when early versions were much easier.

Whether you can get a 12sp set up to work on the 11 with limit screw position and RD position would surprise me since the movement (equiv. of mechanical pull ratio) is slightly different.


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by Weenie


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