madone SLR vs SLR DIsc ?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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ome rodriguez
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Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:16 am

by ome rodriguez

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Ax-lightness VIAL evo 3,89kg - sold

Lightweight Urgestalt Disc 6,86kg - sold

Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL6 Ultralight 6,16kg - sold

Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL7 6,93kg

Specialized S-Works Aethos 571g

Cemicar
Posts: 241
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:40 am

by Cemicar

ome rodriguez wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:50 am
Those weights are impossible.
My friend’s 2019 trek madone slr 8 disc size 54 is 8,2kg
The bike seems to have 400 grams heavier parts (e.g. Aeolus 6 vs Aeolus Pro 5, no pedal vs Xpresso 12, Montrose Pro vs Montrose Elite and 9120 vs 9170, while the tires and derailleurs are lighter), and the remaining 400 grams can be explained by the team paint, uncut fork or headset spacers.

by Weenie


bikepress
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Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:55 pm

by bikepress

Noctiluxx wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:36 pm
Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:14 pm
^Agreed. My experience was with an SLR version as well. What’s so different about the latest iteration of rim brakes? Haven’t had a good look at them yet.
More power and torque compared to the previous generation.
And how is buy cleaning and cable routing? how is with new iso speed in the back? esay to live after you know them, or you need to disassemble the all bike?

and i suppose the bike is sharp because is lighter?

sorry i know to many questions!! but if you can answer would be very cool!

Mep
Posts: 523
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 4:11 pm

by Mep

Honestly, the Madone's rim brakes are actually good even though they're integrated. I reckon most Madone owners like myself have little to complain about, so when something shows up trashing the braking, we don't actually have much in common to say. Yes they definitely involve more parts and require more adjustment and precision to get right, but once they're set up properly they brake very well. Indistinguishable from eeBrakes from my experience. The fact that the brakes are this good for integrated brakes are almost certainly an industry first, and you get an extremely aero bike that's comfortable. I paired mine with a light set of wheels and it already comes in under 7kg with minimal effort. I'm curious about Calnago's findings though.. do you think you may have come across a defective one? The springs and screws are close together but certainly do not interfere with each other. I'm able to center mine by watching the wedge closely i.e. back off when it starts to tilt off center.

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FIJIGabe
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Location: The Lone Star State

by FIJIGabe

I will confess that I do live in a flat part of the country, so I don't have much experience regarding long descents. However, I was able to setup the brakes to my liking. It took me a lot of trial and error. After a thorough cleaning, a couple of months ago (and changing the cables), the problems have disappeared. Yeah, it takes some work to get them properly setup, but they're effective (in my opinion). Sure, they aren't Dura Ace level brakes (many manufacturers fall into this category), but they're certainly not all that bad.

pafori
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Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:31 am

by pafori

bikepress wrote:hi everyone!!

finally i got some extra cash, and there is a big chance i finally buy a madone to make company to my emonda slr!

all of my bikes are rim! all of my carbon wheels are rim braking!

any thoughts on Rim vs Disk on this model, should start to convert or keep it, the extra weight is almost a 1 kg of deference beteewn them ( if i use my wheels ), compering with my 6.5kg emonda with 60mm aero wheels is 1.5kg plus for the disk, 700g plus rim break to rim break!

weight and ride feel are my biggest concern.

thank you boys and girls!
Congrats on the prospective new bike!

For me, disc brakes are significantly better than rim brakes, particularly rim brakes on carbon.

Add descending and/or rain and disc brakes excel even more. If you're like most, you'll descend much faster with disc brakes because you will be fully confident in how they will behave.

At times, convincing road cyclists to choose disc brakes feels to me like the eighties and nineties when people would still argue that soccer would never be a popular sport in the US.



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01silver4
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Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:30 pm

by 01silver4

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:24 am
Impossible is a silly word. With the right wheels, lightweight TAs, a Bontrager XXX saddle, XG1190 cassette, etc. you could probably get a Madone SLR Disc to just under 7kg. And that’s purposely mentioning components that aren’t that exotic.
I totally agree!

AJS914
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

pafori wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:02 am
At times, convincing road cyclists to choose disc brakes feels to me like the eighties and nineties when people would still argue that soccer would never be a popular sport in the US.
It's still not popular in the US. :D

kzy090
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Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:37 pm

by kzy090

I've rode the Trek Madone both in disc, and rim.
The disc version brakes has better modulation and power, even in the wet.
So if you live in a mountainous country, or ride in the rain a lot, (expecially if you use carbon rims) I recomend the disc version.
But the rim brake version has pretty good braking in the dry, and Mavic, Zipp, Enve, Campag etc has wheels with better braking surface than the Bontragers(don't know about the new ones, though).
The disc brake bike is heavier, but disc specific rims are lighter than the rim brake counter part(because they don't need to make any braking surface), so the rotational weight would be lighter.
However, I don't see so many "disc specific rims" that are actually designed from the bottom up.

bruno2000
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by bruno2000

As OP states he allready has a 6.5kg Emonda (propably with rim brakes) I would choose the Madone in disc.
You allready have a lightweight climbing bikes for those marvellous days in the mountains.
Why not just add an aero bike, which will be heavier anyway, with new technology disc brakes?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Madone disc is more aero than the Madone rim.

I kind of did the same.
Tarmac SL6 with rim brakes with Super Record eps12v and Bora Ultra wheels for climbing and I added a Tarmac SL6 disc brake with dura Ace and 'heavier' aero wheels for the cobbles.

Mep
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Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 4:11 pm

by Mep

bruno2000 wrote:As OP states he allready has a 6.5kg Emonda (propably with rim brakes) I would choose the Madone in disc.
You allready have a lightweight climbing bikes for those marvellous days in the mountains.
Why not just add an aero bike, which will be heavier anyway, with new technology disc brakes?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Madone disc is more aero than the Madone rim.

I kind of did the same.
Tarmac SL6 with rim brakes with Super Record eps12v and Bora Ultra wheels for climbing and I added a Tarmac SL6 disc brake with dura Ace and 'heavier' aero wheels for the cobbles.
The disc version is not more aero. It's actually less aero than the Madone 9 rim brake version and is also heavier. You'll have to decide if having disc brakes justifies that cost.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Ok, before I just let this all go, I suppose I should follow up. Since no one answered my question as to how the new 2019 Madone brakes differ operationally from the prior version (saying they stop better is not an answer), I researched it myself. Well, aside from the placement on the bike, they are essentially the same. Even Trek's "white paper" confirms this. Same screws for adjustment, same setup, you name it... the difference is where they put them on bike, at least the front. If one guys rim brake Madone (whether 2019 or prior) stops better than anothers, it's simply because of a better initial setup, different rim, pads etc. And that is part of the problem... perfect setup on these brakes is kind of an art in itself, versus the simplicity of design and ease of setup one has with a normal standard rim brake.
So, simply stated, these brakes do not compare to the best rim brakes out there (for standard of comparison I'm talking about either Campy or Shimano's best rim brakes, both brands are excellent). The Madone's brakes are finicky, difficult to set up and keep that way, and prone to all kinds of grit and grime contaminating the workings and compromising the braking feel and performance. If I was a Trek Segafredo mechanic, or rider, I too would likely opt for the disc brakes on this bike. The short lived rim brakes of the first Specialized Venge Vias come to mind, and although I never had to work on those, the hair pulling they caused to both mechanics and riders was probably similar.

A few, or a lot, of pics to illustrate...

A poorly set up rear brake...
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The mechanic setting up these brakes stripped the head on this bolt trying to get things right...
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I had to remove it with an extractor bit...
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Once the cover is removed you can see a bit more of the workings, very easily conataminated by grit etc...
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Ok, these brakes, in addition to the normal bolts to secure the brake block common to all rim brakes, have no less than 4 bolts to adjust things, two on each side, each to be adjusted indepedently yet more or less also dependent on the adjustment of all the other bolts. Quite the process to get them all perfect, but it can be done. Also, that wedge, which pulls the calipers up in the center, is also a critical part of the adjustment, with cable length, and the angle at which is sits being very important as well.

Finally, getting close...
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And voila... all good... or at least as good as it gets with these brakes...
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So... How does it ride... well, it's an aero bike and feels like it. When compared to any of my "non-aero" bikes, it is harsh, isospeed or no isospeed. You just can't really create aero shaped tubes and expect them to be vertically compliant, or at least not as compliant as tubes designed with that in mind, first and foremost. But then, it's an aero bike, and I prefer quality of ride over aero any day. Mind you, this particular setup wasn't helping things, with the Bontrager XXX saddle, and Lightweight wheels with 22mm tires. But it did make the whole setup very light... I don't think you'll find too many 60cm Madones weighing in at 6.64Kg... (granted without any bottle cages, etc.)
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But then again, I'd never ride any bike with these skewers...
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Versus these... which I used for all my test riding...
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And these bars... I just don't like gripping flat bars, and the curve is very broad... just not conducive to how I like to ride or where I like to hold rest my palms... you may like them, I guess they're aero.
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The wheels initially on this bike were the ENVE 6/7's... owner thought it rode like a "tank" with those wheels. For sure the whole bike feels much more nimble with the Lightweights. These particular Lightweights have such a grabby effect to them that modulation was non existent, but that wasn't the brakes' fault, and no matter what I tried I've never been able to clean or otherwise get these wheels to brake smoothly, regardless of the pads being used or the bike or the brakes. I think maybe they have been overheated at some point perhaps, but I just don't know, because they shouldn't be like that. And it's mostly just this set, as I've tested others that are fine in this regard.

So, that's it for my time with this Madone... I got to take it out for some significant rides just to get a feel for it. I guess as far as aero bikes go, this is right up there. But I can see why they're using disc brakes for the team, marketing aspects aside even. As for the Emonda, well... they really have to use the disc brakes to get the weight up to UCI minimum. But for the Madone, I think it's largely that the rim brakes are just too finicky to maintain and simply don't work that great in comparison to the best out there. You'd certainly never see any pro mechanic leaning out of a team car while giving a quick brake adjustment to a rider cruising alongside.
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Last edited by Calnago on Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Mep
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by Mep

That's an extremely thorough and balanced review. Thanks for writing all that up. It's interesting because I agree with most of your thoughts but came to a different conclusion.The brakes certainly can be finicky compared with regular rim brakes. The design allows you to adjust distance between the brake block and the brake track independently of the angle of the brake, which means more things to adjust with. It's been a set-and-forget operation with mine, so it's not like the design doesn't work, it's just more complicated. I happen to enjoy dialing my bike setup to exactly how I like it (and I don't ride gravel), so this hasn't been a problem for me. If you start adjusting these brakes expecting them to function like normal brakes, then you probably won't enjoy the process.

I had the same experience with your friend, in that the Madone feels pretty dead with wide wheels/tyres. It rolls smoothly but doesn't feel fast and doesn't react quickly. So I also switched my wheels out for narrower ones. That results in a very aero and lively bike. As with all comparisons, you have to compare apples to apples. If I compare my Madone with aero wheels to my SS Evo with climbing wheels, the SS Evo is obviously a more comfortable ride. If I put the aero wheels on the SS Evo, it becomes noticeably harsher. In fact, on the same section of bumpy pavement I can continue pedaling while seated on the Madone, whereas that would be impossible on the SS Evo with the same wheels.

One last piece of consideration for anyone looking to go Madone rim vs. disc is the weight: as with your friend's bike, it's actually quite easy to get the rim version under UCI legal weight. Getting it under 6kg would be significantly harder however considering all the integrated components.

MountainAddict
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Location: Colorado

by MountainAddict

After seeing Calnago's pictures of the brake without the cover there's no doubt I'd go for the disc version. Once you learn how to service disc brakes, it isn't hard, and you do it very infrequently. The Trek rim brakes look like a total pain in the ass.

On top of that there's already a lightweight Emonda in the OP's stable so like bruno said, go for the aero, disc brake bike. If you're worried about weight, ride the Emonda.

by Weenie


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Calnago
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by Calnago

Yes, completely agree about always making apples to apples comparison. I wasn’t comparing two bikes, one with aero wheels and one without. I’d ride them both with the same wheels for sure. I had a good amount of time to play with things... swapping different wheels etc, and no, you certainly can’t just start fiddling with these brakes without a bit, or a lot, of RTFM involved, which I always do when working on things new to me. But their operation once perfectly set up is certainly not as even and smooth as say as say, compared to the brakes I mentioned. And even though these hadn’t even been used that much before I got them, the grit inside was already making itself known. Whereas if you really look closely at a Campagnolo rim brake caliper for example, no matter how covered in muck and grit it may be, the actual function remains pretty unchanged, apart from crap that may be on the pads themselves. All the pivoting points are very well sealed from the elements.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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