Which Groupset to choose in today's madness

[Mr.Gib]

Cal, at first I couldn't figure out what the noise was and then I realized you set up your trainer in the snow. Looks nasty where you are - our fenders got a pretty workout on the Island the last couple of days.

My hands and thumbs are a fair bit longer then yours. And that upper joint on your thumb seems custom made for Campy It's like a 90 degree angle. Mine's a fair bit straighter.

[Calnago]

Hmmm... I never really considered my hands small, I take large gloves etc. I can reach a 10th interval on the piano. But yes, I suppose they are custom made for Campy levers, although I think anyone who rides Campy will tell you the same thing... it's effortless and you don't even think about it. But the thing is, it all seems completely natural to me. And it's fun to shift. Electric is so "clinical". But if I were to go electric it would be EPS simply because it really does mimick the mechanical version much closer than Shimano's Di2 does. And I also don't like the braking action tied to a shift lever as is the case with Shimano mechanical. And by the way, all those shifts I showed in the video can be accomplished way faster in the heat of the moment if I wanted to. But just wanted to show the ergonomics of the hands and fingers.

As for the snow... that's nothing. It's pretty much all gone now, but riding on the roads would be a no go anywhere we'd normally want to ride at the moment. I'm sure there are people doing it, but I'm not one of them. The shoulders of roads here are still pretty snowy in spots and with the rain now, very very wet. It'd be like riding through a stream in places. A very cold stream.

[robertbb]

Took a quick vid. Not much use for the tip indeed.

Good video - this is exactly what I am describing. Note the palm leaving the hood repeatedly. If you designed a shifter to be used for racing, would you design it so that the palm would at some point have to leave the hood to effect a shift? How could it be considered as good (let alone better) than a system that allows the rider to keep their palm in contact with the hood?

The very first shift @Alexandrumarian does is what I mean when I described my shift using *inside* of the joint between distal phalanx and the proximal phalanx. Anywhere on the hood, that's how it looks. Exactly like @Calnago's shifts too - he uses the same part of his thumb. And while he says he takes large gloves, I take small gloves. When on the hoods (in one of three positions possible with the Campy shape) I don't have to release or change my grip in any way to change gears front/back or up/down.

I remember watching a vid ages ago when Campy brought out the new shaped levers for 11 speed. According to the spiel, they did a lot of biomechanical work and used hand models to arrive at the shape and measurements - it wasn't guesswork. And it shows.

The examples given of moving one's wrist back to effect a shift are a red herring. You just wouldn't do that in real life unless you chose to.

[Mr.Gib]

Look, we all do the same thing when riding Campy mechanical. The design compels those various movements as seen in the video. AND the palm is coming off the hood to varying degrees in nearly every shift. Seems like the Campy fans are in some kind of denial. Perhaps an argument that it doesn't matter makes more sense.

I've had my Colnago for 3 seasons now and rode it almost exclusively this September/October, the exception being our local Saturday hammerfest (don't wan't some clown to take out an irreplaceable frame). Thats over 500 km per week - it's not like I am unfamiliar with it, or haven't considered every possible approach to shifting. Even in mid winter riding Sram I still reach for the thumb button occasionally at the start of a ride - I am well habituated to Campy.

Now I'm off to convince Parlee that the need to change their approach on their stock geometry.

[robeambro]

Oh noo you forgot to shift while on the drops! I think we need another episode of "Cal's Snowy Little Hands"

[Jugi]

These video examples made me realize how ergonomically challenging Campy's mechanical levers actually are. Thanks for that. I have, of course, seen them in the wild, but I always thought there has to be a certain easy technique to thumb lever actuation. It seems that is not the case.

But yes, I suppose they are custom made for Campy levers, although I think anyone who rides Campy will tell you the same thing... it's effortless and you don't even think about it. But the thing is, it all seems completely natural to me. And it's fun to shift. Electric is so "clinical".

If you describe the examples on the video "effortless and don't even think about it", I think shifting eTap and Di2 would rate as divine interventions on the same scale. It would actually be quite funny to make a similar video with eTap, as there wouldn't be much movement to be seen at the levers.

But I'm in the same boat regarding mechanical drivetrain's fun factor. I really liked the feeling of changing to smaller cogs on SRAM DoubleTap. When sprinting, it felt like pulling a pistol's trigger on every shift - didn't leave much doubt about was happening at the cassette. Moving to eTap reduced all that tactile feel at the man-machine interface into a button push and a "click". Not as fun, but relatively effortless. Effortless is always nice on the final third of a long, fatiguing ride.

[mattr]

I actually commented on a thread a couple of years ago about campags ideas about ergonomics.
Was shouted down and insulted.

One of the myriad reasons for not using them.

It's only the availability of polished silver groupsets that keeps pulling me back

[wheelsONfire]

Looking at the cost of the new AXS vs gen 1 Etap, well, i guess nothing more need to be mentioned talking Sram?
Price ratio = huge!

I wonder how price will develop talking Campa EPS 2*11 vs 2*12.

[1llum4]

If campy mechanical 11speed vs 12speed is any indicator, there shouldn't be much of a price increase.

[Mr.Gib]

Aaaaack, I've started a revolution! mattr, Jugi, torches and pitchforks everyone, were off to Vincenza to storm the gates and get rid of the thumb button. Thumb gymnastics must die.

[mattr]

LOL, no, i'm just not going to buy it.

Not helped by wholesalers in Sweden really not having any significant interest in selling any campag at all. And the woeful shop support.

[Miller]

I'm struggling to believe this princessy discussion is serious.

[ToughInTheStreets]

The fact that etap is wireless was the selling point for me. Seriously, I feel like this gets tremendously overlooked. Just food for thought

[SchallUndRauch]

I am planning a new build and since 12x is available, will go with it.

However, I am undecided between Campa SR 12x disc mechanical and the new SRAM AXS disc.

After reading about it, I have come to the opinion that SRAM is more technologically advanced than Campas 12x (cleverly expanded gear ratios, better chain according to Tour Magazine, Orbit damper).

But STILL, I don't like the idea of 4 more batteries on my bike... The effort on the evening before a ride to make sure everything is charged and good to go just annoys me. The element of freedom that I associate with riding a bike just takes a knock if the checklist gets too long.

Still, those AXS gear ratios...

[mattr]

I'm struggling to believe this princessy discussion is serious.

?? You new to cycling? The discussion about the merits of each shifter set up (inc DT) and its pros and cons has been going on since 1989 when the first STIs were seen in the wild......... it's not going to stop any time soon.