Help: building a campy group with pf30 - various questions!

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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gipogipo
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:26 pm

by gipogipo

Hello,
i'm building for the first time in my life a frame with campy chorus 11 and a pf30 bb.
I've read various opinions about glueing over greasing or vice-versa, campy pf30 cups.
As a home mechanic i prefer smiplcity so i decided to go with grease: lots of people use morgan blue aquaproof paste which, for some reason, seems hard to find in physical stores and it's quite expensive online. If I use plain marine blue grease insted of Morgan, will it cause any harm to the bb shell or to the cups?
Where can i find the suitable rings for pressing the campy cups? Are they really needed or i can do a decent job with big-enough washers?
Last question: I cannot find any advice on proper torque for brake calipers on carbon fork and rear bridge (I have a fuji sl 1.1), if i recon correctly campy manuals say 10Nm - which i fear it's too much on carbon, some say go by "feel", but i don't have any viable feel, so i'm stuck!
Sorry for the choatic post!

by Weenie


alcatraz
Posts: 2054
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Grease if the cups fit snugly, retaining compound if they don't require much force to press in.

It all depends on the shell/cup tolerances what you will need.

wedgie
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:41 pm

by wedgie

Buy a Praxis Works Campagnolo Ultra Torque PF30 bottom bracket. Simple to fit, totally silent.

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Calnago
Posts: 8156
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Re: Grease vs Retaining compound for Pressfit.... Under no circumstance would I use grease for any pressfit application. I'd do a dry install before using grease. It's an interference pressfit, you do not want any movement between the interfacing surfaces... grease facilitates movement which can increase bearing wear (via moving around in moving cups), since if perfectly aligned cups are allowed to move, well then they're not longer perfectly aligned during that movement. Grease is used all the time however, since it masks a poor install by lessening or elimnating the creaks associated with that movement, but the movement may still be happening. I really like the Morgan Blue Aquaproof Paste as it's adhesion is really good and it prevents corrosion etc much the same as an antiseize product would in interfaces that don't get removed often, if ever, such as headsets and BB cups. If you get creaking with cups that have been pressed in properly (perfectly straight and aligned), either dry or with a product like Aquaproof Paste then I'd use a retaining compound and primer (Loctite 609 and Loctite 7469). Or, if the frame is used and worn, or I just want a super solid install from the get go, I would use the retaining compound straight away.
Using the blue marine grease isn't going to harm anything, other than in the indirect way I just described, but it's not the route I'd be taking for any pressfit application.

Suitable "rings" for pressing in the cups: Are they really needed? I'm sure there are many who would say they're not needed and have used big washers with big bolts on the outside of the cups' edges to press everything in. But that's a hack install at best. Get hold of a good press with proper drifts that will fit within the cups just as the bearings ultimately will and drive the cups in straight and true. The campy tool for this is superb and the best one I've seen, but a good press with drifts that fit will work too.
Sure there are aftermarket BB solutions like Praxis Works you could use, and if you insist on using big washers to mash in the cups, then this might be a better option after those cups start creaking. But I really do like using the Campy cups. They are light, alloy, machined to very accurate tolerances and just make for a nice finished all Campy installation. I've never had an issue with them. There were some early PF campy cups that were not so great but they've long since changed that early design.

Torque for your brake bolts to frame: 10Nm is a lot, and even though it's what Campy recommends, I usually go to about 8Nm and call it good. 8Nm is shimano's recommendation. But your frame's brake bridge and support design should be the primary source for that torque spec. I've seen it be as little as 6Nm on some Time frames. Heed the frame manufacturers specs over the 10Nm recommended by Campy. Going by feel only works if you've got enough experience with different frames and torquing things down to have an idea when enough is enough. Does your frame have an alloy insert where the brake bolt passes through, most do. Does it "look" beefy, I know it's not a definitive answer, but sometimes judgement is all you've got to go on.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

gipogipo
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:26 pm

by gipogipo

Thanks! Especially to Calnago for the very detailed answer. So, finger crossed, i'm going for a dry install.
Is there a good reference book (Zinn, maybe?) for diy build and maintenance of campy groups?

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Calnago
Posts: 8156
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

A read through my C60 build should give you some pretty good basics to get going with...
C60 Campy Build
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

AJS914
Posts: 3207
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

gipogipo wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:44 pm
So, finger crossed, i'm going for a dry install.
As a home mechanic i prefer smiplcity so i decided to go with grease

It sounds like you are really trying to avoid buying the correct Loctite retaining compound. Do it right the first time and enjoy a nice creak free bike.

Also, installing press fit cups into a carbon shell in a way that allows them to move can cause you big problems down the road as the movement enlarges the carbon shell over time. If they are glued in with retaining compound they won't move and won't enlarge your shell over time. Do it right the first time!

Wheels makes a budget press if needed:

https://wheelsmfg.com/presses-tools/pre ... press.html

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Calnago
Posts: 8156
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

I wholeheartedly agree that doing it right the first time is the way to go. And I cringe when people start talking about squishing the Campy cups in with some huge washers, but hey, people are going to do what they’re going to do. Not my bike. Not my problem.

But when it comes to using the retaining compound, I’m mixed about that these days and like a lot of things, it depends. I’ve been just using the Morgan Blue Aquaproof Paste and it’s been fine. But if I ever have the first sign of a creak I’d pull the whole thing and reinstall with Loctite 609. I’ve fixed some nasty nasty BB’s that I thought were beyond repair using much more than a retaining compound and everything has held up 100%. As much as I hated pressfit BB’s when they came out I’ve learned how to live with them and install them so they remain problem free. Do I miss the nice simple easy for anyone to install and problem free threaded BB’s... sure, but the pressfit slop is so much easier for the manufacturers to pump out so I don’t think that’s going to change much going forward.

Colnago actually recommends a dry install into their Threadfit cups, but they are very nice and round with tight tolerances. Campy actually recommends using a retaining compound because they don’t know what frame their cups are going into and better safe than sorry. So, there’s a judgement call involved. I will use Aquaproof Paste in a Colnago/Campy install just because a little anticorrosion protection beyond the anodization already present on both surfaces can’t hurt.

But getting those cups in perfectly straight and aligned is the number one goal to a good install. And that’s a pretty hit and miss proposition using big flat washers.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

PokojniToza
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:41 pm

by PokojniToza

On my previous bike (Bianchi Sempre Pro) I used absolutely nothing. Just pressed the cups and not a speck of a problem (or a sqeak) over a period of two years.

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Calnago
Posts: 8156
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Pressing them in dry to a carbon shell is quite fine actually, and if the tolerances are good, you shouldn’t have a problem. But so many carbon shells need a little help. That’s when the retaining compound will be your friend.
Last edited by Calnago on Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

by Weenie


PokojniToza
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:41 pm

by PokojniToza

Yep. I don't think the mechanic who assembled the Specialissima used anything either, again no trouble (i get some annoying sounds from the cables, though, but that deserves its own thread).

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