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Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:42 am
by bruno2000
While Sram and Campagnolo are presenting/luanching/selling thrie 12 speed groups, I can not imagine not one japanese engineer getting nervous?
Is Shimano working on their 12spd (probably like the new XTR 12speed with a special hub/body) or they did forget the take the next step?

Another question I want your opinions on...Would you still buy a bike/groep with Dura-Ace 11speed knowing you might have an 'old' bike by next summer?
I ask this question as I just bought 2 Tarmac SL6 frame (rim and disc) and I'm in doubt which groupset to put on. Dura Ace 11v di2 or Campagnolo Super Record EPS 12v...
(I work for a Campagbnolo wholesaler so I know what the new EPS 12V groups will be like... #embargo )

Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:42 am
by Weenie

Re: Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:45 am
by Marin
It's not like you can't change the groupset when you like a new one better.

Re: Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:34 am
by Ritxis
bruno2000 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:42 am
While Sram and Campagnolo are presenting/luanching/selling thrie 12 speed groups, I can not imagine not one japanese engineer getting nervous?
Is Shimano working on their 12spd (probably like the new XTR 12speed with a special hub/body) or they did forget the take the next step?

Another question I want your opinions on...Would you still buy a bike/groep with Dura-Ace 11speed knowing you might have an 'old' bike by next summer?
I ask this question as I just bought 2 Tarmac SL6 frame (rim and disc) and I'm in doubt which groupset to put on. Dura Ace 11v di2 or Campagnolo Super Record EPS 12v...
(I work for a Campagbnolo wholesaler so I know what the new EPS 12V groups will be like... #embargo )
It is known that since the launch of the R9100, or before Shimano is / was already working in 12 or more speeds.....has a patent of 14 since 1999 (expires this 2019) There are already rumors in a German forum

Re: Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:49 am
by TobinHatesYou
Shimano paper launched DA R9100 in 2016. Given that most groupsets are on 3-year update cycles, a winter 2019/20 announcement seems likely. Of course that means you won't actually be able to get your hands on "DA9200" until late summer 2020 or worse... because Shimano.

e: corrected date

Re: Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:59 am
by Cemicar
Shimano has announced new DA every four years. 7900 in June 2008, 9000 in June 2012, 9100 in June 2016, although the actual delivery is late (especially Di2 and hydraulic groupsets are latecomers), so hold your breath until June 2020, or simply buy Sram/Campy.

Re: Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:14 am
by madik
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:49 am
Shimano paper launched DA R9100 in January of 2017. Given that most groupsets are on 3-year update cycles, a winter 2019/20 announcement seems likely. Of course that means you won't actually be able to get your hands on "DA9200" until late summer 2020 or worse... because Shimano.
It was June 2016, the announcment day. Shimano is on 4 years release cycle. The new 12s R9200 is expected to be announced around the same date in summer 2020. Shimano usualy does this, announce new products in early summer with expected availability around September, October... But the last DA took much longer. Only mechanical rim R9100 groupset was ready at the end of 2016. Around TdF 2017 some teams had at least finally a rim brake di2 groupsets R9150. And the disc brake version was finally availible with limited numbers around October 2017. And more widely available early 2018.

So R9200 should be available around 20 months from now. And I am sure they are in ongoing prototyping stage. And hopefully they will sort out their manufacturing problems. New XTR groupset is in the same troubles as R9100 was so we will see.

Re: Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:21 am
by madik
The main questions with upcoming R9200 are:
- Will be di2 wireless, or at least partly?
- Will Shimano join Sram and use 10T sprocket to widen cassette range with smaller chainrings? Or join team Campa and just lower the jumps in the middle of cassete?

Re: Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:41 am
by Ritxis
madik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:21 am
The main questions with upcoming R9200 are:
- Will be di2 wireless, or at least partly?
- Will Shimano join Sram and use 10T sprocket to widen cassette range with smaller chainrings? Or join team Campa and just lower the jumps in the middle of cassete?

will implement its dynamo integrated in the pulleys of derailleur? ( has patent about it) to give power to the groupset and compatible devices??

Re: Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:47 am
by TobinHatesYou
madik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:21 am
The main questions with upcoming R9200 are:
- Will be di2 wireless, or at least partly?
- Will Shimano join Sram and use 10T sprocket to widen cassette range with smaller chainrings? Or join team Campa and just lower the jumps in the middle of cassete?

You can be sure SRAM won't grant Shimano access to its derailleur mounted battery patent, so no full wireless unless the patent is challenged. The best they can do is a FSA WE type of set-up with wireless shifters.

Re: Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:59 am
by Ritxis
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:47 am
madik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:21 am
The main questions with upcoming R9200 are:
- Will be di2 wireless, or at least partly?
- Will Shimano join Sram and use 10T sprocket to widen cassette range with smaller chainrings? Or join team Campa and just lower the jumps in the middle of cassete?

You can be sure SRAM won't grant Shimano access to its derailleur mounted battery patent, so no full wireless unless the patent is challenged. The best they can do is a FSA WE type of set-up with wireless shifters.
You can not make your Shimano your removable battery, if you'd like??? what will not do...has its semi-wireless communication patent...for better or for worse, the di2 is complex to rely 100% of a communication totally wireless
Shimano should differentiate its Di2 groups, between sports (road, mtb, cx.....) and leisure (urban, comfort.....)

Re: Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:04 am
by StevenH72
I've just spec'd 11sp Red eTap on a new bike build. Thought I might regret it once 12sp was introduced by Sram, but having seen the release I don't regret it at all.

eTap looks better in my mind and is lighter. I don't see the advantages that 12sp brings at the moment and the cost difference and weight difference just isn't worth it in my mind.

Now, a 1x 14sp would be a different story.

Re: Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:06 am
by madik
I think the best case scenario would be wired FD and RD with battery which would have wireless capability. And wireless shifters that would connect into battery's wireless module. In this configuration we would have the same good battery life as the current di2 has. Much easier installation specialy around the front end. No more expensive and cluncy junction boxes. Just two di2 cables insted of 5-6 as is required now? di2 cables are ridiculously expensive for what they are and dont make me start about the junction boxes and their prices. Shifters still could have cable ports for sprint shifter and so on, therefore it could still be possible to connect it with old battery for example.
That would be just happy days. We will see.

Re: Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:25 pm
by Karvalo
bruno2000 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:42 am
While Sram and Campagnolo are presenting/luanching/selling thrie 12 speed groups, I can not imagine not one japanese engineer getting nervous?
Is Shimano working on their 12spd (probably like the new XTR 12speed with a special hub/body) or they did forget the take the next step?
Of course they're working on it, but the release of EPS12 and eTap12 isn't going to surprise or hurry them at all. Campag have always been the first to get the extra cog on the road and Shimano have always been quite happy to let them have it for a while, while SRAM was inevitable since eTap was due a 2nd Gen and there's no way they wouldn't have ported 12sp over from their MTB line. It's not like Shimano live in their own little bubble with no idea what's happening elsewhere, y'know? There's not a single person in an Osaka boardroom saying 'OMG, 12 speed is here, we didn't see that coming!' :wink:

And right now given the problems they're having with production of the new tech in XTR it's particularly unlikely that announcement of a new DA will be accelerated from their usual timescale. I don't think they want to risk dealing with two clusterf's at the same time.
(I work for a Campagbnolo wholesaler so I know what the new EPS 12V groups will be like... #embargo )
Then how is it you can't get an EPS group cheap enough to make it a no-brainer? :o

Re: Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:50 pm
by eric01
The march towards additional gears and obsolescence of older kit is inevitable. You shouldn’t let this deter you from buying gear now that you could be enjoying for years to come.

The current gen 9100 really is good stuff. So is 9000 for that matter.

Lifes too short. Go out and ride.

Re: Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:36 pm
by ParisCarbon
Last year when I was considering Di2 for my SL6 I had contact with a Euro Shimano employee and was told there will be no new Dura Ace til 2020..

Re: Shimano 12speed...

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:36 pm
by Weenie