R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
TiCass
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:13 pm

by TiCass

rides4beer wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:35 pm
robeambro wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:20 pm
Well if I had to listen to emotions only, I would be getting a Venge and throw a bunch of spacers on it.
But I think it would be more rational, when having a single bike, to be more sensible. Also cause it’s not that I’ll be racing or anything.
Life is short, get the bike that makes you yearn to ride it, and puts a smile on your face every time. Doesn't matter what you use it for, if you want to ride it, then that's the bike for you.

I test rode two bikes, an all arounder/climber, and an aero bike. Everyone said get the all arounder, even though the aero bike is the one that put a smile on my face. But I listened to their advice and got the all arounder, and wasn't happy with it, it just felt blah when I was riding it. Luckily they had a good return policy, so I returned it and got the aero bike and absolutely love riding it!! I have no problems climbing with it and it's comfortable enough for long group rides. But most importantly, I can't wait to ride it every chance I get!
Totally agree, get the bike that make you smile. For me, I can't deal with matte black bike anymore. I would go with the R5 Navy Blue.
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by Weenie


cjm
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:56 pm

by cjm

robeambro wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:20 pm
Well if I had to listen to emotions only, I would be getting a Venge and throw a bunch of spacers on it.
But I think it would be more rational, when having a single bike, to be more sensible. Also cause it’s not that I’ll be racing or anything.
Is the stack not the same on the Tarmac and Venge once you include the headset top cap on the Venge?

anykarthik
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:37 pm

by anykarthik

To continue the derailing -- get the Venge.

I did.

I also wanted a UDi2 bike for price/performance balance. The Venge Pro has the Sworks frameset. The Tarmac doesn't.

I had a Ridley Helium on alu wheels prior to the Venge. Yes the Venge is more harsh, but honestly not that much more. I now run Hutchinson Fusion Performance tires. 25 front, 28 rear. Both at 75psi and tubeless. They measure out to 27 and 30. Comfort is just fine - no complaints. Caveat - I haven't ridden more than two hours yet.

Once you get the Venge up to speed (22+), it just sings.

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 2961
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

It's not my thing to whine about, but come on..... buying a Venge which is supposedly "aero", then squeeze 25mm of spacers underneath stem.
That's kind of ridiculous!
Why go for the aero frame, when it's obviously not an aero position using such a row of spacers?
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

SchallUndRauch
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:58 pm
Location: East of West

by SchallUndRauch

Tour Magazine does not just test aero properties. They also test the saddle post deflection in N/mm, as a proxy for comfort. Have you looked at those numbers yet? The Canyon should be the most comfortable, with around 80 (I have this split seat post on my bike and it's great!). The Tarmac should have around 100. The Cervelo will be harsher, as will be the Venge (ca 260 N/mm)

robeambro
Posts: 612
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

Thanks to everybody who answered. I'm genuinely surprised that most people would suggest me to "follow my heart". Anyway, will try and reply to most people, but apologies if I missed somebody. I've read and valued every comment anyway :mrgreen:
SchallUndRauch wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:08 pm
Tour Magazine does not just test aero properties. They also test the saddle post deflection in N/mm, as a proxy for comfort. Have you looked at those numbers yet? The Canyon should be the most comfortable, with around 80 (I have this split seat post on my bike and it's great!). The Tarmac should have around 100. The Cervelo will be harsher, as will be the Venge (ca 260 N/mm)
Yep I've seen those. And I was a bit scared. Even though they are quite abstract figures until one puts their butt on the saddle.
wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:01 pm
It's not my thing to whine about, but come on..... buying a Venge which is supposedly "aero", then squeeze 25mm of spacers underneath stem.
That's kind of ridiculous!
Why go for the aero frame, when it's obviously not an aero position using such a row of spacers?
Provided that it's others who are telling me to get it, I feel I owe you an answer.
"Why go for the aero frame?". As mentioned many times, it's just aesthetics. I don't think I've said that I'd go faster on it, and if somebody did, that's not me.
"Obviously not an aero position": well, given my fit I will have 9.5 - 10cm of saddle to bar drop, so I'd say it's not a relaxed position either. It's as aero as I would get on any other bikes anyway.
That being said, what is ridiculous to you may not be to everybody. :noidea:
anykarthik wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:54 pm
To continue the derailing -- get the Venge.

I did.

I also wanted a UDi2 bike for price/performance balance. The Venge Pro has the Sworks frameset. The Tarmac doesn't.

I had a Ridley Helium on alu wheels prior to the Venge. Yes the Venge is more harsh, but honestly not that much more. I now run Hutchinson Fusion Performance tires. 25 front, 28 rear. Both at 75psi and tubeless. They measure out to 27 and 30. Comfort is just fine - no complaints. Caveat - I haven't ridden more than two hours yet.

Once you get the Venge up to speed (22+), it just sings.
I don't know if it's wise to get a Venge, but anyway here goes:
I wouldn't get a Venge Pro cause I loathe the decals, the saddle colour, the wrap, and being a baby, I would want the charisma of a S-Works logo. I'm not even lying to myself.

That being said, you'd be very useful if you went for a 5h+ ride this weekend, and report back :mrgreen:
cjm wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:43 pm
robeambro wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:20 pm
Well if I had to listen to emotions only, I would be getting a Venge and throw a bunch of spacers on it.
But I think it would be more rational, when having a single bike, to be more sensible. Also cause it’s not that I’ll be racing or anything.
Is the stack not the same on the Tarmac and Venge once you include the headset top cap on the Venge?
Yep, should be! Only the Ultimate and R5 would be slightly higher, but I don't really know about the top caps on those.

sparklywheels wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:26 pm
robeambro wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:44 pm
IchDien wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:51 pm
OP wouldn't be getting that option, because the integral stem is only included with the Dura Ace build. Nor does he want disc as far as I can remember...
Oh no I wanted disc :)
I didn’t really say anything about brake choice, now that you mention it. But yes, would choose disc.

To be honest it sounds like not many people (if any) would pick an R5 over a Tarmac, so my choice is evolving to another triangle

Tarmac (possibly the best all rounder)
Ultimate (all rounder on a budget)
Venge (all-rounding is overrated)
May I ask why you want discs? I went disc, but the Propel/Enviliv bikes are supposedly more aero with discs ala P5x. Otherwise, the high price of parts and increased weight wouldn’t make it worth it IMO. Follow your heart, you want to love the bike you get. I think the Venge is the best if you like to go fast, aero is almost always faster on any actual course. When facing a headwind, aero bikes really shine (20 kph headwind + 20 kph actual speed =40kph)
I will most likely live in a rainy area for the next few years, and I don't want to worry about braking performance in the wet. But I don't want to discuss brakes here, it's already derailing enough with the Venge :mrgreen:

anykarthik
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:37 pm

by anykarthik

wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:01 pm
It's not my thing to whine about, but come on..... buying a Venge which is supposedly "aero", then squeeze 25mm of spacers underneath stem.
That's kind of ridiculous!
Why go for the aero frame, when it's obviously not an aero position using such a row of spacers?
The Venge and the Tarmac have the same geometry once you put the taller headset cap on the Venge (not something you can avoid). The Venge frame has a cutout for this cap, so the cap ends up being flush with the top tube. If you look purely at stack and reach which is purely for the frame, this little detail will be missed and it ends up seeming that the Venge fit is more aggressive. It is not.

https://cdn-cyclingtips.pressidium.com/ ... 1-of-1.jpg

So if you need 25mm of spacers on a Venge, you will need 25mm of spacers on the Tarmac.

robeambro
Posts: 612
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

anykarthik wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:27 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:01 pm
It's not my thing to whine about, but come on..... buying a Venge which is supposedly "aero", then squeeze 25mm of spacers underneath stem.
That's kind of ridiculous!
Why go for the aero frame, when it's obviously not an aero position using such a row of spacers?
The Venge and the Tarmac have the same geometry once you put the taller headset cap on the Venge (not something you can avoid). The Venge frame has a cutout for this cap, so the cap ends up being flush with the top tube. If you look purely at stack and reach which is purely for the frame, this little detail will be missed and it ends up seeming that the Venge fit is more aggressive. It is not.

https://cdn-cyclingtips.pressidium.com/ ... 1-of-1.jpg

So if you need 25mm of spacers on a Venge, you will need 25mm of spacers on the Tarmac.
I had two bike fits, with one suggesting ~57cm stack and another one suggesting ~58cm. But this kinda ignores the size of the headset cap, I think. Go figure how many cm spacers I would need on a bike :mrgreen:

anykarthik
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:37 pm

by anykarthik

robeambro wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:25 pm
Thanks to everybody who answered. I'm genuinely surprised that most people would suggest me to "follow my heart". Anyway, will try and reply to most people, but apologies if I missed somebody. I've read and valued every comment anyway :mrgreen:

I don't know if it's wise to get a Venge, but anyway here goes:
I wouldn't get a Venge Pro cause I loathe the decals, the saddle colour, the wrap, and being a baby, I would want the charisma of a S-Works logo. I'm not even lying to myself.

That being said, you'd be very useful if you went for a 5h+ ride this weekend, and report back :mrgreen:
I wish! Have a young baby at home, so even the 2 hour rides are very occasional (like once a month).

As far as decals go - I REALLY wanted a non-black bike. But the purple option for the Venge Pro was too bling for me. The glitter killed it. Plain purple and I'd have been all over it.

All that said, I now LOVE LOVE the look of the black bike with the holographic bits. To my eyes, it looks really nice in person. In fact, I didn't get along with the stock Power saddle and I tried really really hard to find another option that had the same reflective cover (like the Toupe or Power Arc) even if that meant compromising on comfort. Yea. Stupid. I eventually wisened up and stuck to the Selle Smp I know and trust.

Also the S-Works logo is a bit of a turnoff for me to be honest. Again, too posh. I know it's silly to point at something else as being too posh when buying a $8k bike, but I just prefer the less in-your-face-ness of the standard Specialized logo. And given that the actual frameset (stem, post, handlebar, fork too) are all S Works bits under the skin, it was a win-win for me.

anykarthik
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:37 pm

by anykarthik

robeambro wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:35 pm
I had two bike fits, with one suggesting ~57cm stack and another one suggesting ~58cm. But this kinda ignores the size of the headset cap, I think. Go figure how many cm spacers I would need on a bike :mrgreen:
So my previous bike (Ridley Helium) had a stack of 575mm. I eventually got to where I had no spacers on it and was comfortable. But I have a weird body shape. 5'10" and 35" inseam. I'm all legs. So my saddle is typically high and frames are usually too long for me. For example, I had an 8cm stem on the Ridley.

I'm completely comfortable on a stock 54cm Venge with all spacers in place. My saddle to bar drop is about 12cm. And honestly, I think it's silly when people say that more spacers means less aero. On the same frame, yes, that is true. But the thing that affects aero to an appreciable degree is body position. If that is the same, then who cares who many spacers are in place? You either have a tall headtube and no spacers or a short headtube and lots of spacers. The difference should be negligible -- especially with the aero spacers.

sparklywheels
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:12 pm

by sparklywheels

anykarthik wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:44 pm
robeambro wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:35 pm
I had two bike fits, with one suggesting ~57cm stack and another one suggesting ~58cm. But this kinda ignores the size of the headset cap, I think. Go figure how many cm spacers I would need on a bike :mrgreen:
So my previous bike (Ridley Helium) had a stack of 575mm. I eventually got to where I had no spacers on it and was comfortable. But I have a weird body shape. 5'10" and 35" inseam. I'm all legs. So my saddle is typically high and frames are usually too long for me. For example, I had an 8cm stem on the Ridley.

I'm completely comfortable on a stock 54cm Venge with all spacers in place. My saddle to bar drop is about 12cm. And honestly, I think it's silly when people say that more spacers means less aero. On the same frame, yes, that is true. But the thing that affects aero to an appreciable degree is body position. If that is the same, then who cares who many spacers are in place? You either have a tall headtube and no spacers or a short headtube and lots of spacers. The difference should be negligible -- especially with the aero spacers.
It’s just that the exposed steerer tube isn’t as stiff as the area where the upper bearing is braced by the head tube. It is pretty noticeable on some bikes IMO.

robeambro
Posts: 612
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

anykarthik wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:44 pm
robeambro wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:35 pm
I had two bike fits, with one suggesting ~57cm stack and another one suggesting ~58cm. But this kinda ignores the size of the headset cap, I think. Go figure how many cm spacers I would need on a bike :mrgreen:
So my previous bike (Ridley Helium) had a stack of 575mm. I eventually got to where I had no spacers on it and was comfortable. But I have a weird body shape. 5'10" and 35" inseam. I'm all legs. So my saddle is typically high and frames are usually too long for me. For example, I had an 8cm stem on the Ridley.

I'm completely comfortable on a stock 54cm Venge with all spacers in place. My saddle to bar drop is about 12cm. And honestly, I think it's silly when people say that more spacers means less aero. On the same frame, yes, that is true. But the thing that affects aero to an appreciable degree is body position. If that is the same, then who cares who many spacers are in place? You either have a tall headtube and no spacers or a short headtube and lots of spacers. The difference should be negligible -- especially with the aero spacers.
We are the same height, my inseam is a bit shorter though, ~2cm. You must have arms even longer than mine (and I have long ones!) if you can handle a 12cm drop! :shock:

I'm not really concerned about what others say, I am not really considering the Venge on the grounds of superior performance (I've read and crunched data long enough to realise that a Tarmac / Ultimate with an aero handlebar and equally deep wheels will be pretty much the same, and I don't race to care enough for that tiny little residual gap in performance), it's purely on looks.

anykarthik
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:37 pm

by anykarthik

robeambro wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:57 pm
We are the same height, my inseam is a bit shorter though, ~2cm. You must have arms even longer than mine (and I have long ones!) if you can handle a 12cm drop! :shock:

I'm not really concerned about what others say, I am not really considering the Venge on the grounds of superior performance (I've read and crunched data long enough to realise that a Tarmac / Ultimate with an aero handlebar and equally deep wheels will be pretty much the same, and I don't race to care enough for that tiny little residual gap in performance), it's purely on looks.
Yup. The difference is too small to care and it comes down to aesthetics. Some aero bike spacers look great to me actually (Venge, Aeroad, Madone) and others look goofy (Propel, SystemSix). And a tall stack of round spacers does look goofy too, but again, who cares.

Honestly, if the Tarmac hid all the cables like the Venge does (again, purely aesthetic), I probably would be riding one right now for the lower weight and higher comfort.

hannawald
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:28 pm
Location: Czech Republic

by hannawald


by Weenie


robeambro
Posts: 612
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

hannawald wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:48 pm
Another vote for Venge:)
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/cat ... iew-52413/
You guys are evil! :roll:

I'll see both in March, there's a big bike fair in the Netherlands. Hopefully I'll also be able to sit on both for a few minutes. And possibly an Ultimate as well.

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