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Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:07 am
by robeambro
hannawald wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:49 am
If you like Venge, you should really buy Venge. You should follow your heart or you may be selling what you buy now and go Venge in a year or so..it will be costly. Many of us have this experience:) Only condition you can fit the geometry of the bike. Other than that it will be ok, it is not like riding Tarmac vs Venge will be night and day... Aero and classic bike are coming close, classic bikes are more aero and aero bikes are more comfortable, stiffer, lower weight. It´s not like buying TT bike..Venge is still pretty universal bike.

And there is a bonus for you - Venge Pro Disc with Ultegra Di2 should have the same frame as S Works Venge, which is not the case with Tarmac.
I see your point. I would fit ok on a Venge with ~ 2.5cm spacers, and the Tarmac should have a similar stack (a bit higher but with a lower headset cap, so they should be roughly equivalent in terms of fit for me)

Technically all of these bikes would fit me fine with a bit of spacers. The Cervelo would require fewer (1cm) but I would never choose a bike only cause I can fit with 1cm spacers rather than 2-2.5.

I’m only afraid that the comfort would be less on a Venge, and I ain’t buying an aero bike to then throw 30mm tires on it and ruin the aerodynamics.

I currently own a full Alu bike (carbon fork), with super basic wheels, and it feels both uncomfortable on any road irregularity and also very “flexible” when pedalling. And I don’t like either of those characteristics.

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:09 am
by robeambro
zappafile123 wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:31 am
First off, there's some weird advice here. All three bikes are in the same category - true allrounder i.e. lightweight with some aero touches. Disregard old mate telling you to buy the most expensive bike. That’s really... really stupid. Resale is contingent upon the market resale value in the area you live in. For example, in Australia, Tarmacs depreciate quite a lot. A tarmac might be the most expensive, but you'd lose the most money. Based on the Australian market, I'd say the Cervelo will hold the highest resale value.

I think ichobi is pretty close, though for me the most responsive bike I've ridden hands down is the CF SLX Evo. I really didnt like the split seat post - you bob around too much. The integrated handlebar is also too limiting with respect to fit adjustment (though you could use a regular bar stem). For me the CF SLX had a slightly one-dimensional ride quality - it wowed you with acceleration but its stealthy the rest of the time. Comfort is merely ok. Nevertheless, as an allrounder its really impressive. In fact, all three bikes are fantastic allrounders.

I think the Tarmac and the Cervelo trump the Canyon because they’re both newer models and to me just a little bit more interesting to ride. No one wants to drop $$$ only to have their bike superseded within 12 months. I would go for the Tarmac for the following reasons. Cervelos have an established history of QC problems. A lot of Cervelos creak. I know this is a charge particularly relevant to older Cervelos, but they're still using BBwright which seems to be a platform prone to problems. The proprietary bar stem they use are ugly (though again you could just change it). As others have said above, direct mount brakes are a bit better than centre mount. I haven’t ridden the two bikes side by side, but both are excellent race rigs – very responsive, and feel very fast. I can’t comment on comfort or handling with the Cervelo because I only rode it for a few kms – it seemed ok to me. Honestly, I haven’t ridden anything that’s better than the Tarmac. It’s a rider’s bike - stiff and fast. Not amazingly comfortable, but its fine for a 3 hour ride.
Thanks for the Cervelo QC info - piece by piece I’m starting to lean towards the other options.

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:09 am
by Weenie

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:24 pm
by hannawald
Venge disc should be fine with 28mm tyres, that´s what Scott Foil and some others comes as a standard..you should not need to go 30mm..I used to ride Scott Foil Disc as my main bike and no problem riding it whole day even on not perfect roads..if you really think about it and focus on it while riding than yes, ultimate slx was a bit more comfortable, but not really something that would bother me..i wouldn´t say Foil was uncomfortable and race only bike...

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:05 pm
by TiCass
2018/2019 Cervelo come out of the box with thread together bottom bracket. You're less likely to experience creaking with that then with the Spec/Canyon cups alternative.
Cervelo QC issues are highly anecdotal. You might want to take a look at their recall history page here: https://www.cervelo.com/product-recalls
And here's the Specialized one: https://www.specialized.com/us/en/safety-notices

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:46 pm
by Stueys
I've not seen anything other and above the norm with pressfit re Cervelo. Cannondale subjectively seem problamatic, Cervelo seem to be much of a muchness with regards PF. But that's a subjective view, I've not seen any data that gives me an objective way to assess issues. The recall pages posted above are interesting but Spesh has a much broader range of bikes than Cervelo...

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:05 pm
by TiCass
robeambro wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:59 am
extremejetfighter wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:01 am
Full disclosure: I owned a current generation R5 and returned it in favor of the SL6 Tarmac (SW).

This is not relevant if you're looking at the disc models, but for me direct mount brakes on the tarmac were a factor in favor of the tarmac. The other major factor was comfort. As mentioned, this may be largely subjective, but the tarmac is more comfortable. I also heard said that the dimension data riders last year preferred the S5 over the R5 for compliance/comfort which says a lot. Aesthetics/paint/shape also led me towards the SL6 (although the classics version of the R5 is very nice, it wasn't an option when I was deciding and may not be avaiable anymore anyway). Additional small OCD thing, cable routing with Di2 is better on the tarmac... it is designed to enter directly adjacent to the rear brake port...on the R5 you're supposed to route the Di2 cable in through the top of the top tube behind the stem. Those were my reasons for choosing the SL6 over the R5. However, at least where I live, the R5 is probably the rarer bike to encounter which you might prefer.

I do think ultegra Di2 is a very good choice for groupset.

And finally, you could certainly make the argument the new venge would also be a good one bike solution/all around bike, but I won't further derail.

Thanks! Yes I agree that cable routing on the Cervelo is definitely off putting, but If the bike had been better than the Tarmac, I could have looked past it. Turns out though, everybody seems to like the Tarmac just a little bit more.
I believe there is no obligation to use the holes behind the stem to route the DI2 cable. If I recall correctly, Team DiData last year just shrink wrap the DI2 cable with the brake cable like we usually see. But yeah, with gear cables, you have to use these holes.

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:03 pm
by Calnago
Behind the stem through the top of the top tube is without a doubt the worst possible routing for a mechanical drive train ever devised. Actually, I take that back... some of the new integrated affairs can be just as bad, and although I haven’t worked on one yet, I can see where a fully integrated Colnago C64 mechanical drive train setup may fall into this category as well.

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:50 am
by stevod
TiCass wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:05 pm
robeambro wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:59 am
extremejetfighter wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:01 am
Full disclosure: I owned a current generation R5 and returned it in favor of the SL6 Tarmac (SW).

This is not relevant if you're looking at the disc models, but for me direct mount brakes on the tarmac were a factor in favor of the tarmac. The other major factor was comfort. As mentioned, this may be largely subjective, but the tarmac is more comfortable. I also heard said that the dimension data riders last year preferred the S5 over the R5 for compliance/comfort which says a lot. Aesthetics/paint/shape also led me towards the SL6 (although the classics version of the R5 is very nice, it wasn't an option when I was deciding and may not be avaiable anymore anyway). Additional small OCD thing, cable routing with Di2 is better on the tarmac... it is designed to enter directly adjacent to the rear brake port...on the R5 you're supposed to route the Di2 cable in through the top of the top tube behind the stem. Those were my reasons for choosing the SL6 over the R5. However, at least where I live, the R5 is probably the rarer bike to encounter which you might prefer.

I do think ultegra Di2 is a very good choice for groupset.

And finally, you could certainly make the argument the new venge would also be a good one bike solution/all around bike, but I won't further derail.

Thanks! Yes I agree that cable routing on the Cervelo is definitely off putting, but If the bike had been better than the Tarmac, I could have looked past it. Turns out though, everybody seems to like the Tarmac just a little bit more.
I believe there is no obligation to use the holes behind the stem to route the DI2 cable. If I recall correctly, Team DiData last year just shrink wrap the DI2 cable with the brake cable like we usually see. But yeah, with gear cables, you have to use these holes.
^yes this is easy - the di2 cable slips in between the clip of the cable entry grommet and fits without pinching (and without the di2 cable having to be threaded through the grommet when the frame's cabled up) - you just need to put the di2 through before you slot the brake cable housing back into the grommet. Looks neat and tidy and works a treat. Don't necessarily need to heat shrink, although I'll probably do mine at some point - they're currently taped with electrical tape.

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:35 am
by IchDien
TiCass wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:05 pm
I believe there is no obligation to use the holes behind the stem to route the DI2 cable. If I recall correctly, Team DiData last year just shrink wrap the DI2 cable with the brake cable like we usually see. But yeah, with gear cables, you have to use these holes.
For the Cervelo (s5 and r5) you can route it two ways...

Either like this:
Image

Or like this:
Image

Or if you're really crazy you can do a Cavendish and route the junction box from the saddle...but still with the di2 wire going into the rear brake port
Image
Image

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:43 pm
by spud
that under saddle location seems to be about the worst possible - either interfering with a saddle bag, or getting covered in road spray.

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:20 pm
by TiCass
Or you can do it the way it is shipped...

Image

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:51 pm
by IchDien
OP wouldn't be getting that option, because the integral stem is only included with the Dura Ace build. Nor does he want disc as far as I can remember...

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:44 pm
by robeambro
IchDien wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:51 pm
OP wouldn't be getting that option, because the integral stem is only included with the Dura Ace build. Nor does he want disc as far as I can remember...
Oh no I wanted disc :)
I didn’t really say anything about brake choice, now that you mention it. But yes, would choose disc.

To be honest it sounds like not many people (if any) would pick an R5 over a Tarmac, so my choice is evolving to another triangle

Tarmac (possibly the best all rounder)
Ultimate (all rounder on a budget)
Venge (all-rounding is overrated)

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:26 pm
by sparklywheels
robeambro wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:44 pm
IchDien wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:51 pm
OP wouldn't be getting that option, because the integral stem is only included with the Dura Ace build. Nor does he want disc as far as I can remember...
Oh no I wanted disc :)
I didn’t really say anything about brake choice, now that you mention it. But yes, would choose disc.

To be honest it sounds like not many people (if any) would pick an R5 over a Tarmac, so my choice is evolving to another triangle

Tarmac (possibly the best all rounder)
Ultimate (all rounder on a budget)
Venge (all-rounding is overrated)
May I ask why you want discs? I went disc, but the Propel/Enviliv bikes are supposedly more aero with discs ala P5x. Otherwise, the high price of parts and increased weight wouldn’t make it worth it IMO. Follow your heart, you want to love the bike you get. I think the Venge is the best if you like to go fast, aero is almost always faster on any actual course. When facing a headwind, aero bikes really shine (20 kph headwind + 20 kph actual speed =40kph)

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:35 pm
by rides4beer
robeambro wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:20 pm
Well if I had to listen to emotions only, I would be getting a Venge and throw a bunch of spacers on it.
But I think it would be more rational, when having a single bike, to be more sensible. Also cause it’s not that I’ll be racing or anything.
Life is short, get the bike that makes you yearn to ride it, and puts a smile on your face every time. Doesn't matter what you use it for, if you want to ride it, then that's the bike for you.

I test rode two bikes, an all arounder/climber, and an aero bike. Everyone said get the all arounder, even though the aero bike is the one that put a smile on my face. But I listened to their advice and got the all arounder, and wasn't happy with it, it just felt blah when I was riding it. Luckily they had a good return policy, so I returned it and got the aero bike and absolutely love riding it!! I have no problems climbing with it and it's comfortable enough for long group rides. But most importantly, I can't wait to ride it every chance I get!

Re: R5 - Ultimate SL - Tarmac

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:35 pm
by Weenie