Trek madone 9 upgrade etap - saving weight ?

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Noots
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:54 pm

by Noots

Hello,

I'm sorry if my english is not perfect, i'm french and i try to do my best.

I would like to upgrade my trek madone 9 with a new group.

This is my actual configuration :
Group : sram force 22 with sram red quarq Dzero powermeter

Wheelset : dtswiss arc 1100 dicut 48 db clincher
(Latex innertubes and GP continental)

Handlebar : 3t aeronova Ltd team stealth
Stem : 3t arx II pro

Pédals : look keo blade cr

Image

For now, the weight is 7.2kg

My question is : what is the possible gain if i change my groupset ? (Levers + front and back deraileurs short cage)
When i'm looking for the weight, i find that :
Force = levers 346gr + front 79gr + back 168gr = 593gr (+ average cables and housing ???gr and + the mechanical control center by trek*.)
*This element looks heavy but my official trek retailler don't have the weight and i can't find the information on internet : this piece https://www.bike24.com/p2181304.html

Red 22 mechanical = levers 280gr + front 69gr + back 145gr = 494gr (+average cables and housing ???gr and + the mechanical control center by trek)

Red 22 Etap = levers 260gr + front with battery 187gr + back with battery 239gr = 686gr (+ average brake cables and housing) BUT - the mechanical control center and - average deraileurs cables and housing.

So, the difference with unknown informations :
Actual force 22 versus Red 22 mechanic : gain : - 99gr

Actual force 22 versus Red 22 etap : i take + 93gr

But there are 2 cables and housing and this mechanical control center who disapears ...
So i feel confident about a gain on the final weight.

I need your help to know if i'm right. (It's only about weight, i don't care about electrical or mechanical. I like the both. But for this bike i have to buy a new groupset to upgrade it. For now i've optimized the other parts and components, i think the groupset is a good option to save few grams)

And maybe if someone know the weight of the mechanical control center.

I listen for any advice and appreciate it.

Thank you very much for your help. :-)

Guillaume

by Weenie


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Noots
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:54 pm

by Noots

i'll try answering them myself, if it can interest somebody.

I send a message to a very nice WW member who have a Trek Madone 9 and he give me the precious information.
The control center mechanical : 41gr And the cover : 4g (total 45gr)
(The control center di2 : 24gr)

I ignore the weight of the brake cables because in each configuration it doesn't change.

weight of an average dura ace shift cable --- find in a box at home (just to have a idea of a full lenght cable) : 13gr
weight of "non-cut" shift housing --- find in a box at home, total lenght 206 cm for 68gr (probably too much ... i think 100 - 110 cm is enough) : let's go for 40gr (for the front and the rear deraileurs)

Force 22 = levers 346gr + front deraileur 79gr + rear deraileur 168gr + cables (13x2) 26gr + housing 40gr + control center 41gr = 700gr

Red 22 mechanical : Levers 280gr + front deraileur 69gr + rear deraileur 145gr + cables (13x2) 26gr + housing 40gr + control center 41gr = 601gr

Red 22 Etap : Levers 260gr + front deraileur 164gr (source : Bikerumor.com) + rear deraileur 240 gr = 664gr



Force to Red 22 mecha : Save 99gr // Cost for the small groupset (Levers, front and rear deraileur) (approx, depend of the website, without cables) : 637 € (6.43€ / gr)

Red Mecha to Red etap : + 63gr ....

Force to Red etap : Save 36 gr // Cost for electrical part of E tap groupset 1115 € (31€ / gr)


So .... The best option to saving weight is the red 22 mech. And i think it's possible to save more with a very light shifting cableset.
there are some topics with recommandations, i'm looking for that !
Last edited by Noots on Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mep
Posts: 516
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 4:11 pm

by Mep

Why are you subtracting the cable/housing weight from eTap? You've calculated the Red mechanical weight to be 601g, and the eTap weight to be higher without adding cable/housing. You shouldn't need to then subtract again the cable/housing weight.

Noots
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:54 pm

by Noots

Mep wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:22 pm
Why are you subtracting the cable/housing weight from eTap? You've calculated the Red mechanical weight to be 601g, and the eTap weight to be higher without adding cable/housing. You shouldn't need to then subtract again the cable/housing weight.
Correct.
I made a big mistake !! i didn't notice, thank you very much.

i'm working on it to fix it.

Greenduck
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:36 pm

by Greenduck

According to GCN the eTap is slightly heavier than mechanical including brake and gear cables.

This is the weights according to their video:

SHARED COMPONENTS:
Chainset: 663g
Cassette: 166g
Brakes: 261g
Chain: 250g
Brake Cables/Housings: 135g

ETAP SPECIFIC COMPONENTS:
Shifters Etap - 261g
Derailleur front Etap - 164g
Derailleur Rear Etap - 239g

MECHANICAL SPECIFIC COMPONENTS:
Shifters Mechanical - 302g
Derailleur Front mechanical - 75g
Derailleur Rear Mechanical - 146g
Gear cables, and bits, outers - 78g

Here's a link to the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdBHaYyc6rE
Pinarello Dogma 65.1 Think 2: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=139324

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

If you have a problem in the future, repairs will be costly with etap.

Etap has a completely different feeling. Many people like it and will not go back.

Etap is not flawless.

The weight difference is negligable.

So to summarize, if you have the dough and don't mind spending some money in the future failsearching an issue, get etap. I'd stay on sram chains/cassettes/chainrings/pulley wheels to be safe.

If you want to save some big bucks, get some more flexibility in your component choices for later upgrades, like buying more lightweight components that may or may not be etap "compatible", get mechanical.

Recabling a madone is painful. Getting etap would help a lot if you don't like to do the job. Personally I don't mind because I'm happy with my choices of cables/housing that I know I'll get a long life out of them. If you want to experiment with cables then a madone is not the bike to use.

Noots
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:54 pm

by Noots

Greenduck wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:11 pm
According to GCN the eTap is slightly heavier than mechanical including brake and gear cables.

This is the weights according to their video:

SHARED COMPONENTS:
Chainset: 663g
Cassette: 166g
Brakes: 261g
Chain: 250g
Brake Cables/Housings: 135g

ETAP SPECIFIC COMPONENTS:
Shifters Etap - 261g
Derailleur front Etap - 164g
Derailleur Rear Etap - 239g

MECHANICAL SPECIFIC COMPONENTS:
Shifters Mechanical - 302g
Derailleur Front mechanical - 75g
Derailleur Rear Mechanical - 146g
Gear cables, and bits, outers - 78g

Here's a link to the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdBHaYyc6rE
Good stuff ! Thank you for that ! :)

Noots
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:54 pm

by Noots

Hi Alcatraz,

I'm totally agree with you.

I create this topic to find help with some missing informations (weight of the control center mechanical, weight of cableset) and think about the possible weight saving or not. (In this case, i've got my answer)

I know for recabling ... it can be important for some people but it not driving my choice.

And for another upgrades, i can give you my entire configuration but i really don't know wich components i can change to save weight.
(If i change my force 22 to red 22 meca with Light cableset, i probably save 120 gr)
I will appreciate your help and advices.

Handlebar : 3T aeronova team stealth 215gr
With 3T arx II team stealth 110mm 120gr
Pedals look keo blade cr (110gr/pedal) - probably change for the same but in titanium (95gr/pedal) saving 30gr

Crankset : quarq dzero sram red with sram chainring (i need my powermeter ... not so heavy this quarq)

Bottle cages : tacx deva 29gr X2 : 58gr
Saddle : paradigm xxx carbon rails : 165 gr
Wheels : dt swiss arc 1100 dicut 48 db clincher 1490 gr
Tyres gp continental 4000s2 waiting for gp 5000 and latex vittoria innertubes (80gr per innertube, i find panaracer r'air 68gr per innertube. I will)
Bar tape fizik superlight classic (maybe change for a lizardskin)

And groupset, i'm on it ! (Did i forget something ?)

Thank you again for your message. :)

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

A madone is all about speed. In my opinion you wouldn't do the bike right if you sacrifice aero for weight.

I'd go with the original bars, aero bottles, maximize what I can like bolts/saddle/groupset/wheelset then work on my power. If you decide to do some racing then just keep the bike nice and clean, and work on your power numbers.

If you ever feel like the bike is too heavy and you're losing seconds compared to your buddies remember that you have an advantage on the flat and on the descent.

If I could pick only one bike I'd take a madone too. There are limits to how far I'd go with secondary objectives. Lets be honest, for a madone, weight is one of them.

If I had money burning in my pocket and knew I'd stay with one bike, I'd get etap/di2 and so on.

I chose a different route and got 3 bikes. It makes life so much easier when you can have different priorities. Light stuff (non-aero ok) on the climber, good braking wheels, shallower is ok. Tubeless optional.

Maximum aero on madone/tt bike, ignore weight. Aggressive position. Low rolling resistance = "heavier" tubeless. Deep "heavy" wheels, skin suit, aero full face helmet, shoecovers, perfect shifting before lightweight = duraace over sram red. Don't drop chains and so on. All about saving seconds which electronic shifting does do.

Tt bike is completely ignoring weight. Split nose saddle, most aggressive position, disc wheel, heavy aero brakes, maybe oval chainrings and so on....

The more agressive the position the lower the power. So it takes a lot of discipline and hard work to ride an aero frame or tt frame. If this is not fun for you then better stick with a climber or endurance bike than to have an upright position on an aero bike and lose the whole point.

Sorry for babbling. Just thought to share some insight. To summarize, on a madone, don't worry about 30 grams. The obsession won't make you faster. If I were you I'd only take the lighter of two choices if they both have the same aerodynamic advantage or they both allow the same power production. Only then...

Noots
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:54 pm

by Noots

Image

Image

I understand your message.
Trust me, i'm okay with all of that.

As you see on the pictures, i really enjoy the speed of the madone. (I ride alone without help.)

It's just because i really love this bike that i want to make it a little bit lighter. Even if it's an aero machine ... as you say, i'm a little bit in the wrong way (7.2kg in the previous configuration. Not so heavy.)
I already have a tarmac sworks with Light aluminium wheels low profile, for moutains during holidays. (Near to 6.8kg ... Not very Light but still okay.)

I thank you for your help and your message :-)
I still thinking about that. ..!

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Nice pictures.

Work on your flexibility maybe.

Compare your power numbers between different bar height positions. Choose the sweet spot or one step more exteme to try and develop a faster position.

You can buy speed in the form of faster clothes and helmet. Shoecovers save you more than a deep wheelset. Get those.

Did you know there are weightweenie clothes? I saw a brand somewhere, much lighter than castelli and still warm apparently.

Noots
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:54 pm

by Noots

Good to know !

I'm going to watch for this clothes and stuff.

I can give you a good post about Light and aero clothes, helmet and other stuff. (With gain and test)

In french, because i am, but you can translate easilly.

http://www.cyclesetforme.fr/tendances-a ... es-tenues/

User avatar
FIJIGabe
Posts: 2241
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:07 pm
Location: The Lone Star State

by FIJIGabe

Just finished tearing down, cleaning and recabling my Madone 9. It's a laborious task - easily a 6hr job, for full mechanical. If you can minimize the amount of recabling you have to do by going electronic, I recommend you do so. I'm waiting for the full complement of 12-speed groups to come out before making the leap, but SRAM's lack of updates for 11-speed eTap have me leaning toward Shimano (especially if both groups will require me either lacing my rear wheel to a new hub or getting new wheels, altogether).

I'm glad I was able to help you, Noots. You lucked out in that I was literally in the middle of the process, and had both Control Centers accessible to me, when you e-mailed me.

Noots
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:54 pm

by Noots

Thank you again for your help FIJIGabe !

I know, it's hard to recabling the madone.
I continue to think about my futur upgrade ...

I'm really surprised about the weight of the mechanical control center, I expect much more. (I imagine 100 150 gr)
For the weight aspect, red mechanical stay the best but i know, there are many factors.

Mep
Posts: 516
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 4:11 pm

by Mep

Noots wrote:Good to know !

I'm going to watch for this clothes and stuff.

I can give you a good post about Light and aero clothes, helmet and other stuff. (With gain and test)

In french, because i am, but you can translate easilly.

http://www.cyclesetforme.fr/tendances-a ... es-tenues/
Great read, thanks for linking!

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



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