Weight Weenies

Was curious where their top end group is made given it is pretty expensive. I’m guessing Japan, with Ultegra and below made all over Asia.

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I think it depends on the component. I believe hubs, cranks, chainrings, cassettes are made in Malaysia?

Dura Ace, Ultegra, XTR and XT made in Japan and some 105 parts like hydraulic disc brakes also. Other stuff mostly made in Malaysia.

TurboKoo wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:41 pm

Dura Ace, Ultegra, XTR and XT made in Japan . .

Ok. Makes sense now. Was looking up Dura Ace shifters at Merlin for a buddy and saw they are a little more expensive than my Campy Record ones. Though “oh, made in Japan.”

VTR1000SP2 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:25 pm

I think it depends on the component. I believe hubs, cranks, chainrings, cassettes are made in Malaysia?

Only the wheelset assembly for DA is done there.

MyM3Coupe wrote:

TurboKoo wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:41 pm

Dura Ace, Ultegra, XTR and XT made in Japan . .

Ok. Makes sense now. Was looking up Dura Ace shifters at Merlin for a buddy and saw they are a little more expensive than my Campy Record ones. Though “oh, made in Japan.”

DA is „equivalent“ to Super Record (and not Record).

Pricing is not only related to the production country or production cost but it is a marketing tool.

DA was always equivalent to Record, since the 1970s

Only when you consider Campag withdrew Super Record for some 20+ years in 1987 and only reintroduced it only in 2008.

DA RD, FD and brake-shifter levers are put together in the SARA line in Osaka. The line was commissioned by Matsushita (Panasonic) in 1991. Most of the alloy parts are made in the close by forging shop.

Apparently you have not been at the factories when you say like that.
I’ve been to two different factories in Osaka, Shimonoseki the birthplace of XT and the factory next to HQ where Dura Ace, XTR and Di2 are made.

I work for a a Shimano supplier, that’s why I’ve been at some of the factories.

SARA is the line used for XTR and DA, it started to work in September 1991.

TonyM wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:35 am

Pricing is not only related to the production country or production cost but it is a marketing tool.

My other hobby away from bicycles is guitars (classical guitars). I was talking to one custom builder of guitars who said that when he started out, he priced his guitars too cheaply, which made people think they weren't good. When he increased the price, he started selling more. He now charges more than $20k for an instrument, and has a several year waiting list of purchasers.

NickJHP wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:21 am

TonyM wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:35 am

Pricing is not only related to the production country or production cost but it is a marketing tool.

My other hobby away from bicycles is guitars (classical guitars). I was talking to one custom builder of guitars who said that when he started out, he priced his guitars too cheaply, which made people think they weren't good. When he increased the price, he started selling more. He now charges more than $20k for an instrument, and has a several year waiting list of purchasers.

That's very often the case with the luxury good market. What's the point of buying something high end and special if it's cheap enough for everybody to afford? People want some measure of exlusivity and a higher price than might otherwise seem warranted provides that.

Selling too “cheap” helped killing SunTour, fo instance.

Shimano and Campagnolo were better at asking for a premium that they could spend in R&D (among other things, I guess turning a better profit and creating themselves a brand was also benefitting).

The 80’s were crazy in terms of tech development in chain bicycle drivetrains, we started the decade with 2x6 friction speeds and by September 1989 we had 2x8 indexed and timed (HG) gears with integrated controls on the handlebar.

SunTour started the decade better positioned than anyone with their slant parallelogram RDs and having already tinkered with indexed systems (Mighty Click, 1968). But when SIS took the high end market by storm they were simply not making enough money to react as quickly as it was needed.

Shimano understood this and killed them by suing them at everything for patent infringement. There was no basis for any of their legal actions but SunTour had to borrow money to afford the lawyers and attorneys. By late 1989 they were bankrupt and taken over by Mori.

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maxxevv wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:39 pm

Only when you consider Campag withdrew Super Record for some 20+ years in 1987 and only reintroduced it only in 2008.

11sp SR/R/C were all basically the same group and shared a lot of sub-assemblies in common. Just about the only thing that really set them apart from each other was Chorus had a stiffer FD cage (which was rebranded for a special edition of SR) and the weights and logos differed, sort of like that time Shimano made a carbon crank. Once you started looking only at weights, once you got rid of the all steel cassette, even Chorus was looking pretty close to DA in terms of weight.