Time Xpro 12 vs Shimano Dura Ace pedals

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
mattr
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by mattr

Calnago wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:20 am
Don’t know where the quoted above 13.7mm stack height for Dura ace came from but it’s wrong. DA stack height is 8mm and change (<9mm).
We've had this discussion before. Dura ace stack is 13 odd mm. According to shimano.

Unless you ride without cleats.

BdaGhisallo
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by BdaGhisallo

Calnago wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:20 am
If you want skating rink smooth type float, get the TIME. For everything else, Shimano. Don’t know where the quoted above 13.7mm stack height for Dura ace came from but it’s wrong. DA stack height is 8mm and change (<9mm). Cleat stack is noticeably lower too. Walkability far superior with DA. Cleats last longer. Very stable. Unless you jump directly on your bike as soon as you put on your shoes, and never get off your bike during a ride to go to the bathroom, have a break, go in some cafe for lunch, you will appreciate how easy the Shimano cleats are to walk in.
Caveat... I believe the cleats for the Xpro12’s are the same as for the XPro10, but not sure. I’ve used the Expressos and the XPro10’s in addition to the Dura Ace.
The Iclic cleats that come with the Xpro pedals are slightly different than the previous iteration, though they don't seem to be available aftermarket.

I explained the differences in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=151537&p=1426568&hi ... o#p1426568

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Calnago
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by Calnago

mattr wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:47 am
Calnago wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:20 am
Don’t know where the quoted above 13.7mm stack height for Dura ace came from but it’s wrong. DA stack height is 8mm and change (<9mm).
We've had this discussion before. Dura ace stack is 13 odd mm. According to shimano.

Unless you ride without cleats.
Yes, you're right... I keep having this 8.8mm stack height for the pedal only in my brain, from spindle to platform. Add the thickness of the cleat and you're about there. And upon rereading his post, he did say to the "sole of the shoe", so my bad.

And Ghisallo, yes, I have the newer cleats that you pictured in your link. Are these the same as on the Xpro 12's as well... I presume so.

Still, the walkability of cleats is an important factor for me, whether it's milling about in the garage before a ride, walking on a slippery bathroom floor, or cafe stop (yes, I stop for cafes... often). And I never quite realized how much I appreciated the walkability until I could actually walk well in cycling shoes, thanks to the Shimano cleats. The Time cleats, not so much. LOOK has a supposedly walkable friendly cleat with small hard rubberized tabs on the contact points, but they are not so great when clipped in, and the regular cleats are terrible for walking in and wear extremely fast. Oh, in that other thread that Ghisallo linked to, someone mentioned that TIME now has "fixed" cleats (no float). Is that true?... I've never seen a fixed TIME cleat. Seems kind of pointless since the float is their main selling point, but if they do have some, I will swap my existing ones out for the fixed, as that's what I prefer.

A bike I just recently gave a complete going over to is now creak and squeak free... except for one annoyance in the Xpro10 pedal, which seems to just be a squeak between the pedal cleat interface. But it was annoying and i don't like having to spray or otherwise lube the pedal/cleat interface to prevent it, as it gets me in trouble when I come in and walk on the floor. Yes, even the walk from the bike to inside the house is important. Just to verify the origin of the last squeak, i swapped pedals to Shimano and took it our for the same test ride, up a good hill where the TIME's were squeaking, and was treated to blissful silence. Job done. Owner can deal with lubing the pedal/cleat interface himself.
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BdaGhisallo
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by BdaGhisallo

Calnago wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:38 pm

someone mentioned that TIME now has "fixed" cleats (no float). Is that true?... I've never seen a fixed TIME cleat. Seems kind of pointless since the float is their main selling point, but if they do have some, I will swap my existing ones out for the fixed, as that's what I prefer.
https://www.time-sport.com/int-en/time- ... -2019.html

They are readily available from numerous ebay sellers.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

^ Thanks... I'll pick some up.
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aeroisnteverything
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by aeroisnteverything

Decided to post my own adventures here on this wee topic. Up front, going to go ahead an say that I basically agree with Cal, certainly as far as Shimano vs Time are concerned.
1. Speedplays. Used them for 2 years. Thing is, float really is great. I had an issue with knee pain on Shimano 105s before, and it's gone away as soon as I switched to Speedplay. I now actually think that this might have been actually stack height and not float (so just need to put the seat higher), but still experimenting, and TBD. What I like about speedplays:
- Float and stack height. Both are miles better than anything. Stack height is around 11.5mm for 3-hole mount shoes. That's 2mm better than Shimano/Time and 3mm better than Look. That's 2mm off seat height, and therefore a somewhat more comfortable position.
- They are totally user serviceable. This is in the negatives column as well though, because they need a LOT of service :). But you can take these things apart, clean, re-grease, reassemble, replace bearings if you have to (the latter can be harder).
- You can buy them in Cro-mo and them buy a bunch of Ti parts for them. So I first swapped the spindles. Then I also bought Ti bolts and bow ties on ebay. All generally fine. I also got some Ti cleat bolts (the ones that fix the shim). Net result: pedals weighed 138g, and the aero walkable cleats with all hardware - another, wait for it, 142g. Sheesh. Light, but total system weight is basically like Dura Ace, for a whole lot of extra effort.
- The aero walkable cleats are actually the best of the lot for walking, unless you really go into the mud. Better than shimano.
- Pedal and cleat are really low profile together, and yeah, probably a bit more aero than Dura Ace. But, come on: talk about a truly marginal gain.
- Clipping in is a breeze, because they are double-sided, and pressing the shoe down will mean that the hole in the cleat and the pedal naturally find each other.

The negatives are well known. These are very high maintenance pedals. Bearings can go bad after riding in a intense rain (that rubber ring "seal" does not really do that much). They can develop clicking noises, which are hugely difficult to get rid of. And the damn rocking. That hit me just recently for the first time, and, man, that is not like float at all and really, really wobbly, and just not what I want the pedal to do. Got me thinking about how much energy I was wasting just keeping my feet level. That, coupled with the fact that simply to replace the plastic body (all I need, since I have all the other parts) is 80 quid, if you can find them or more, and I just HAD it with these things. Off I went in search of a less capricious and still comfortable. Have I mentioned that if you loose one of them plastic covers for the aero cleats (which I have), then it's more expensive to replace than the whole set of shimano cleats? Yeah.

2. Shimanos. The thing about these, is what everyone else says:
- They are bulletrpoof and just work. You know these will last for years, with zero maintenance
- Yes, the cleats are great for walking. Plus cheap to replace and widely available.
- They always hang the right way up
- The float is less than Time and does not come close to Speedplay, but 6 degrees is actually ok. At least I did not find Time to be a revelation compared to Shimano on this metric.
The negatives:
- least float;
- stack height is 13.7mm per spects - they could have done better by just using a thinner cleat!;
- weight. DA spec is 228g but I weighted two samples at 240g. Plus cleats - total is 310g. You can do better. Although you can also shave off 10g from cleats by buying Ti bolts and washers on Ebay.

3. Time. I bought and tried a set of Xpro 12. Fully agree with everything Cal said about them.
- Yes, cleats are terrible to walk in -really the worst design, and it's shocking that they could not make them less "stacked".
- Aero - indeed, "give me a break": they are much more prominent under the shoe than Shimano, let along Speedplays.
- Yes, they don't always hang the right way.
- The float did not blow me away. It's ok. I mean, sure the foot can move a bit more than Shimano, but overall it's a pretty marginal difference in feel.
- No, clipping in is not, IMO, any better than Shimano. Like Cal, I did not "notice" the iclic, and actually missed it a bunch more times while testing than I ever did with Shimano. Maybe I am not used to them, maybe I am doing something wrong, but I just don't see this as a selling point.
- The whole design just seems so much less robust than DA. A lot of plastic, much of it exposed - I expect these to get scuffed in daily use pretty badly. No idea how the bearings will last either: maybe as long as Shimano, but nore likely not.
As for weight: I weighed the pedals at 195g (7 grams over spec) and at 285g with cleats all the hardware. So minus 15g over Shimano (after Ti mod).

Decided in the end that I was not impressed with the float or the weight differential over the Shimano enough to overcome the negatives. Returning them and will be riding Shimano unless knee pain returns and then will just have to go back to Speedplays.

Missing from this list are Look Keo blade carbon Ti. I weighed these at 200g for the pedals alone (10g over spec). Did not weigh the cleats/hardware, but spec is 62g, so should be overall the lightest package in this price bracket. But I decided to not even try these because of the 14.7mm stack height. They need to do better on that score.

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Wingnut
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by Wingnut

Agree Shimano’s are so well made, durable etc...just the float feels like an afterthought. I sold my Dura-Ace and went back to Time...each to their own.
"It's not the destination...it's the ride!"

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kgt
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by kgt

+1 on Time float.
I am also impressed by those who cannot fell the difference in engagement between an i-clic and a typical pedal. For someone it may not be better or worse, that's fine, but i-clic makes engagement considerably easier. That's not a matter of perception only, it is a fact as it is a totally different system in terms of engineering.

BdaGhisallo
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by BdaGhisallo

I agree with Wingnut and KGT. Time's Xpro float is superior to that of Shimano and the engagement is noticeably easier in my experience. But I can do without much float so the Shimano DA pedals with blue cleats do the trick and I can enjoy all the attributes of the spd-sl design.

aeroisnteverything
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by aeroisnteverything

kgt wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:09 am
+1 on Time float.
I am also impressed by those who cannot fell the difference in engagement between an i-clic and a typical pedal. For someone it may not be better or worse, that's fine, but i-clic makes engagement considerably easier. That's not a matter of perception only, it is a fact as it is a totally different system in terms of engineering.
What is so hard about engagement? You step in to the pedal, press down. That’s it. On all of these systems. With the key difference in my view, is whether or not your foot finds its way to where it needs to be every time, without a slip or a miss. To me, because Shimanos always hang the right way, and because you step into that nice big opening with your cleat - it’s a less error-prone system. Not as good a speedplays, but quite good. Or are you saying that iclic design makes it easier to step into the pedal? I did not find it to be true. :noidea:

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kgt
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by kgt

I say that the i-clic makes engagement and disengagement easier. This is a fact. You cannot say "I did not "notice" the iclic". It is not possible not to notice it. Whether it offers something to you or not, that's another story.
Another plus is that you can have the cleat as firm as you like and still engage and disengage easily. Have you tried that to DA or Look with 16nm blades? They require considerably more power to engage and disengage and it is not fun, for sure, especially if you have to stop suddenly for some reason. IMHO, you cannot criticize walking on Time cleats (which is not what they are made for) and not even notice issues which are directly related to cycling experience.
Needless to say, DA are excellent pedals, we just discuss different characteristics and technologies.

BdaGhisallo
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by BdaGhisallo

aeroisnteverything wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:42 am
kgt wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:09 am
+1 on Time float.
I am also impressed by those who cannot fell the difference in engagement between an i-clic and a typical pedal. For someone it may not be better or worse, that's fine, but i-clic makes engagement considerably easier. That's not a matter of perception only, it is a fact as it is a totally different system in terms of engineering.
What is so hard about engagement? You step in to the pedal, press down. That’s it. On all of these systems. With the key difference in my view, is whether or not your foot finds its way to where it needs to be every time, without a slip or a miss. To me, because Shimanos always hang the right way, and because you step into that nice big opening with your cleat - it’s a less error-prone system. Not as good a speedplays, but quite good. Or are you saying that iclic design makes it easier to step into the pedal? I did not find it to be true. :noidea:
I haven't ever found any pedal hard to click into (other than the odd pair of SP Zeros, that is) but the Iclic engagement on the Xpro takes less effort to engage - you simply don't have to push down as hard. That's it. Kind of like lifting a 5kg weight - it's not at all hard to do, but it does take more effort than lifting a 2kg weight.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Yeah, I can tell the difference... it’s like instead of stepping on a beetle, it’s like you’re stepping on an ant. No biggie, it’s not something I even think about... job done and pedal off. It’s certainly not a selliing point imo that’s for sure. I would much rather have the pedal rest at the same angle every single time like Shimano does, so you know it’s going to be where it should be without having to pay much attention.
Time’s selling point is definitely the float. It’s like a skating rink, and if that’s your thing, I get it. I would get them too. Along with it’s potential for squeaking. But I prefer no float... I have no weird knee tracking problems, and I like the solidness of a fixed cleat. And even if I wanted a bit of float, the choice between the blue or yellow cleats provides that. But no pedal has that slippery float feel like Time, that’s for sure. Speedplay’s have too many other nuisances to worry about... durability, maintenance, walking, etc. and yes... walking is important unless someone (like mommy), sets you on your bike and shoves you off to get you going and you never ever leave the saddle until mommy pulls you off again.
I’ve had Look Blades before, starting with the 12Nm Blades, but immediately swapped them for the 16Nm. No issues with clipping in and out of them either. Again, clipping in and out of pedals is a given, you just do it. Just didn’t like them nearly as much as the Shimano.
You want slippery float, get Time. Everything else, there’s better options.
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BdaGhisallo
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by BdaGhisallo

Calnago wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:11 pm

You want slippery float, get Time. Everything else, there’s better options.
That's it in a nutshell.

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