Chinese steel frame project

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
froze
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:47 am

by froze

fluffandstuff wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:08 am
froze wrote:Like others have said I would be concerned about the quality of the chroming process. Even American and Japanese chrome, which was the best in the world, had issues with tarnishing, pitting and rusting, it's difficult to near impossible to find a mint condition chrome finished bike even made back in the 80's not alone prior to that. Even cars that used a heavier chrome plate than bikes do you can't find a good example of original chrome from the 60's unless it was stored in a environmentally controlled environment. Keep in mind when I say rust, I'm not talking about the chrome rusting, chrome doesn't rust, it's the underlying metal that rusts and pushes itself out to the surface where the chrome will bubble and peel due to the rust forcing itself to the outside.

I used Wenol Auto & Motorcycle Polish in the blue tube because it has no abrasives unlike the same stuff in the red tube, on my vintage cars chrome bumpers and it works well, but you have to be diligent with it and apply it once a month if being used outdoors. The non abrasive blue tube polish is critical that you only use a non abrasive product especially on a thinly chromed bike. I don't even use an abrasive car paint wax either on a car or a bike especially. If the chrome gets dirty from riding you should use S100 Polishing Soap before applying the Wenol product, just follow the directions on the can, but this stuff is not be used on painted surfaces, aluminum surfaces or whatever, only chrome, and it is not a protectant that's the job of the Wenol product so you need to do both.

So while a chrome bike is very unique and beautiful there is a lot of work required to keep it that way, if you don't mind the work then your bike will sparkle like crazy for a long time if the Chinese did a good job at the plating process. You should before you even ride it the first time is to put that Wenol stuff on it, if you already rode it then get wash it and polish it right away. Both of those products are on Amazon and neither are expensive, and always follow the directions to the letter.

If your chrome begins to pit down the road simply google how to fix it, but that is a difficult process that often ends in failure. The reason for the pitting is due to the underlying metal rusting and causing the chrome to pit, sort of like a volcano. So hopefully China put the chrome on the metal frame before it started to rust.
Havent been riding it since I am still figuring out what groupset to put on it. Long story short, turned out swapping between 10 and 11 speed cassettes on my Kickr requires more work than I thought, and the idea of having to constantly swap the cassette between this bike and my 11 speed bikes troubles me.

Thanks for the tip on the Wenol product and polishing soap, ordered them on Amazon.
Im still waiting for the anti-rust stuff to ship and have sealed the ends on the frame for now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When you say sealed the ends of the frame are you speaking of tiny holes about 1/16th to 1/8th of an inch in diameter located in the rear stays by the dropouts facing downward? If so, I would not seal those, those are for letting condensation to have a place to go instead of setting inside the frame trap and then beginning the rust process from the inside. They were placed there by the factory to for another purpose as well and that was to have a place for the pressure that builds up from heating the frame for the brazing to vent out of the frame. Now some people do say to close those small holes off, but leave the larger one in the bottom bracket open, how you can tell if the holes were put there to drain water is if there are two holes and not one, because only one is required to vent the hot gases out, but two is needed to not only vent the hot gases but also to let water out during the bikes life.

If you also have those vent holes on the fork those you can close off because water can't make it into the blades other than through those holes, so the fork blades have an airtight situation, and rust is needs oxygen to work, and those holes would provide the oxygen necessary; the frame on the other hand is not airtight so now you need the holes to drain water out.

I'm not an expert on frame building, maybe someone else can tell you, and me, if I'm correct, but that is my understanding of those holes in the frame.

All you need to do to prevent rust is to spray some Frame Saver or pour some Linseed oil into the frame and coat the inside of the tubings.

As far as components go, depending on how much cash you want to drop on a generic bike, I would keep the budget low because of the lack of resale value, so if it were me I would either go with 105 or Tiagra depending on if you want a 11 speed or 10 speed. The 105 brake calipers are better than the Tiagra due to Tiagra having a one piece brake block which these have a bit more flex and are more difficult to service. While the Tiagra is only a 10 speed rear Tiagra can do triples and the 105 cannot, not sure if you feel you need triples or not but there is that potential to go to triples on the Tiagra. There is only about 330 grams difference between the two groupsets, and there isn't much price difference either. Anyway you need to decide the 10 ve 11 speed thing.

by Weenie


waltthizzney
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:35 pm

by waltthizzney

how is the tire clearance? I was looking at this bike, can it fit 28mm?

fluffandstuff
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:15 am

by fluffandstuff

froze wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:35 am
fluffandstuff wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:08 am
froze wrote:Like others have said I would be concerned about the quality of the chroming process. Even American and Japanese chrome, which was the best in the world, had issues with tarnishing, pitting and rusting, it's difficult to near impossible to find a mint condition chrome finished bike even made back in the 80's not alone prior to that. Even cars that used a heavier chrome plate than bikes do you can't find a good example of original chrome from the 60's unless it was stored in a environmentally controlled environment. Keep in mind when I say rust, I'm not talking about the chrome rusting, chrome doesn't rust, it's the underlying metal that rusts and pushes itself out to the surface where the chrome will bubble and peel due to the rust forcing itself to the outside.

I used Wenol Auto & Motorcycle Polish in the blue tube because it has no abrasives unlike the same stuff in the red tube, on my vintage cars chrome bumpers and it works well, but you have to be diligent with it and apply it once a month if being used outdoors. The non abrasive blue tube polish is critical that you only use a non abrasive product especially on a thinly chromed bike. I don't even use an abrasive car paint wax either on a car or a bike especially. If the chrome gets dirty from riding you should use S100 Polishing Soap before applying the Wenol product, just follow the directions on the can, but this stuff is not be used on painted surfaces, aluminum surfaces or whatever, only chrome, and it is not a protectant that's the job of the Wenol product so you need to do both.

So while a chrome bike is very unique and beautiful there is a lot of work required to keep it that way, if you don't mind the work then your bike will sparkle like crazy for a long time if the Chinese did a good job at the plating process. You should before you even ride it the first time is to put that Wenol stuff on it, if you already rode it then get wash it and polish it right away. Both of those products are on Amazon and neither are expensive, and always follow the directions to the letter.

If your chrome begins to pit down the road simply google how to fix it, but that is a difficult process that often ends in failure. The reason for the pitting is due to the underlying metal rusting and causing the chrome to pit, sort of like a volcano. So hopefully China put the chrome on the metal frame before it started to rust.
Havent been riding it since I am still figuring out what groupset to put on it. Long story short, turned out swapping between 10 and 11 speed cassettes on my Kickr requires more work than I thought, and the idea of having to constantly swap the cassette between this bike and my 11 speed bikes troubles me.

Thanks for the tip on the Wenol product and polishing soap, ordered them on Amazon.
Im still waiting for the anti-rust stuff to ship and have sealed the ends on the frame for now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When you say sealed the ends of the frame are you speaking of tiny holes about 1/16th to 1/8th of an inch in diameter located in the rear stays by the dropouts facing downward? If so, I would not seal those, those are for letting condensation to have a place to go instead of setting inside the frame trap and then beginning the rust process from the inside. They were placed there by the factory to for another purpose as well and that was to have a place for the pressure that builds up from heating the frame for the brazing to vent out of the frame. Now some people do say to close those small holes off, but leave the larger one in the bottom bracket open, how you can tell if the holes were put there to drain water is if there are two holes and not one, because only one is required to vent the hot gases out, but two is needed to not only vent the hot gases but also to let water out during the bikes life.

If you also have those vent holes on the fork those you can close off because water can't make it into the blades other than through those holes, so the fork blades have an airtight situation, and rust is needs oxygen to work, and those holes would provide the oxygen necessary; the frame on the other hand is not airtight so now you need the holes to drain water out.

I'm not an expert on frame building, maybe someone else can tell you, and me, if I'm correct, but that is my understanding of those holes in the frame.

All you need to do to prevent rust is to spray some Frame Saver or pour some Linseed oil into the frame and coat the inside of the tubings.

As far as components go, depending on how much cash you want to drop on a generic bike, I would keep the budget low because of the lack of resale value, so if it were me I would either go with 105 or Tiagra depending on if you want a 11 speed or 10 speed. The 105 brake calipers are better than the Tiagra due to Tiagra having a one piece brake block which these have a bit more flex and are more difficult to service. While the Tiagra is only a 10 speed rear Tiagra can do triples and the 105 cannot, not sure if you feel you need triples or not but there is that potential to go to triples on the Tiagra. There is only about 330 grams difference between the two groupsets, and there isn't much price difference either. Anyway you need to decide the 10 ve 11 speed thing.
Thanks for the tips. Received framesaver from amazon order 1 week ago and applied it inside the frame. Also applied wenol and polishing soap today. Hope the frame can last a long time.

As for the components I decided to just use the 10 speed for now and not interchange with other bikes on the kickr. This is my first experience pruchasing used components, ebay definitely taught me a lesson. I already bought my groupset on ebay before I ordered the Chinese frame. The 10 spd rival groupset I ordered on ebay came with:
1. FD too rusty to move (trashed)
2. RD somehow the barrel adjuster does not work (will look to replace)
3. Tektro brakes both front and back spring tension too weak (not usable)
4. rival crankset (rusty but acceptable)
5. Ritchey logic II handle bar (good quality but took a long time to wash the old tape and spriderwebs inside the handlebar )
The above together cost $250

So I ended up having to buy
1. a new set of apex brakes
2. new BB
3. new chain
4. a new front derailleur
5. a new 10 speed cassette
which added up additional $180 to my budget build
So I essentially paid $430 for a 10 speed groupset that is difficult to work with, on hindset should have just purhcased a 105 11 speed groupset which costs $100 less and will be brand new, or even full Chinese build would have worked out better than used but disfunctional components...... On the bright side I learned something about 10 spd components and a lot of cross compatibility issues that would not have otherwise existed...

fluffandstuff
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:15 am

by fluffandstuff

waltthizzney wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:23 am
how is the tire clearance? I was looking at this bike, can it fit 28mm?
I think 28mm should fit.
Image
Attachments
IMG_5268.jpg
IMG_5269.jpg

fluffandstuff
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:15 am

by fluffandstuff

Anyways my tarmac gear cable snapped inside the shifter today. So I had to rush my build on the steel frame and put it on my kickr, the steel bike is missing a front derailleur at the moment but it works fine for my trainer setup.

Currently the total weight is 8.95kg:
1.with saddlebag, pedals and garmin mount
2. without front derailleur
Which I feel is not that bad at all.

Image
Attachments
IMG_5266.jpg

waltthizzney
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:35 pm

by waltthizzney

fluffandstuff wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:06 am
Anyways my tarmac gear cable snapped inside the shifter today. So I had to rush my build on the steel frame and put it on my kickr, the steel bike is missing a front derailleur at the moment but it works fine for my trainer setup.

Currently the total weight is 8.95kg:
1.with saddlebag, pedals and garmin mount
2. without front derailleur
Which I feel is not that bad at all.

Image
Do you mind throwing a wheel on the rear to test out the clearance, it would mean a lot! I would love to check if it can fit 28mm on the rear, gonna pull the trigger, it says it only can fit 25mm!

fluffandstuff
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:15 am

by fluffandstuff

waltthizzney wrote:
fluffandstuff wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:06 am
Anyways my tarmac gear cable snapped inside the shifter today. So I had to rush my build on the steel frame and put it on my kickr, the steel bike is missing a front derailleur at the moment but it works fine for my trainer setup.

Currently the total weight is 8.95kg:
1.with saddlebag, pedals and garmin mount
2. without front derailleur
Which I feel is not that bad at all.

Image
Do you mind throwing a wheel on the rear to test out the clearance, it would mean a lot! I would love to check if it can fit 28mm on the rear, gonna pull the trigger, it says it only can fit 25mm!
ImageImageImageImage

Here you go. I would suggest maybe waiting a little bit more for those ebay 15% discount offers.

I tried the bike a couple times on the trainer it is more flexy than my tarmac. Never ridden a proper steel before so cannot compare. But the flexy feel is manageable and maybe more comfortable I guess?




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waltthizzney
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:35 pm

by waltthizzney

Thanks, what size did you get. The geometry of this bike makes no sense. It has short HT and Top Tube, but massive reach?

Image

maxxevv
Posts: 2003
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:51 am

by maxxevv

The tube lengths were probably derived from old frame details that used an external headset. But its grafted onto a design basis for an integrated headtube design.

Meaning there is an additional 25~30mm stack for the external headset on the head tube. And that the drawing is not to scale / representation.

So its probably compensated for somewhere, such as a sloping top-tube, else the seat-tube and head-tube angles are not valid as the lower stack of the headset will push the base point of the steer axis upwards and tilt the headtube upwards and backwards.

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