*Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

Moderator: robbosmans

Yoln
Posts: 457
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

https://wilier.com/sites/default/files/ ... nrader.pdf


Can anyone explain to me how the F10 could reach 202 watts and the Wilier Cento Air 207 with Zipp 404s? Being non aero frames from years ago, I'm wondering if there is a difference in methodology between those and the 2019 tests?
Wilier “Cento Ramato“ : viewtopic.php?f=10&t=160943

Lynskey “the Do-it-all Helix” 🧬: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=161550

by Weenie


robeambro
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

Yoln wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:32 pm
https://wilier.com/sites/default/files/ ... nrader.pdf


Can anyone explain to me how the F10 could reach 202 watts and the Wilier Cento Air 207 with Zipp 404s? Being non aero frames from years ago, I'm wondering if there is a difference in methodology between those and the 2019 tests?
Wheels - 2019 tests are with stock wheels rather than Zipp 404's (which, as a reminder, are 58mm deep wheels. Unsure what tyres were equipped but possibly 23mm at the front?) - most usually this means 5 or even 10w of a headstart for bikes in older tests. Also, 2019 tests feature far more disc brake equipped bikes, which are possibly a handful watts slower than their rim counterparts. Basically, there's plenty of factors to explain the variance.

Also, the F10 and the Cento Air were both aero frames, not sure why you called them "non aero frames"?

REDUTOPIA
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:27 pm

by REDUTOPIA

pmprego wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:41 pm
REDUTOPIA wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:19 am
C36 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:39 pm
REDUTOPIA wrote:Is there a test of Scott addict RC HMX SL 2020/2021?
Is it any different from the RC 10?if not I added it here (my sheet is pending many updates... maybe this weekend)

——————
2018: Cannondale SSevo2HM : 5860g
2000: R4000 caad5: junior bike restauration
1995: Indurain‘s Pinarello: restauration project
Yes the Rc 10 is in HMX carbon fiber, the ultimate is in HMX SL carbon fiber.

But very thanks for your data!
In a thread that seems to be focusing on aero properties, there is no difference between the regular HMX and the HMX SL. It's just weight but again, the thread seems to be about aero properties.
Ok thanks, but it is very strange because the shape is identical and only the type of carbon fiber changes

pmprego
Posts: 986
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

REDUTOPIA wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:50 am
pmprego wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:41 pm

In a thread that seems to be focusing on aero properties, there is no difference between the regular HMX and the HMX SL. It's just weight but again, the thread seems to be about aero properties.
Ok thanks, but it is very strange because the shape is identical and only the type of carbon fiber changes
Different types of carbon fibers thus the slightly lower height. The shape is exactly the same. Thus, in terms of aero is must be exactly the same. Maybe I'm not getting what you're trying to say.

User avatar
JayDee81
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:45 pm
Location: Europe

by JayDee81

pmprego wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:51 am
REDUTOPIA wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:50 am
pmprego wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:41 pm

In a thread that seems to be focusing on aero properties, there is no difference between the regular HMX and the HMX SL. It's just weight but again, the thread seems to be about aero properties.
Ok thanks, but it is very strange because the shape is identical and only the type of carbon fiber changes
Different types of carbon fibers thus the slightly lower height. The shape is exactly the same. Thus, in terms of aero is must be exactly the same. Maybe I'm not getting what you're trying to say.
He's trying to say that if they use the same mold, which would be expected, then even though they use different CF, the shame would be exactly the same, hence aero would be exactly the same too.
edit: My bad. Didn't read the whole post. :oops:

stepiking
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:26 pm

by stepiking

I'm really curious about the new Wilier Filante SLR and also the updated Basso Diamante SV. It seems like we are finally getting some nice all round aero bikes this year that are not that far from all out aero bikes yet are beautiful and not that heavy... Including the new Emonda and Addict. l love the SL7 in this respect but the S-Works price is too crazy... The Wilier is unfortunately in the same price ballpark :-\

req110
Posts: 153
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:23 am

by req110

Filante is 7.09kg on dura ace di2, without pedals, one vico cage, 350g light cockpit, with 42mm wheels (1578g) and vittoria corsa. In my look it looks more like a notlightweight bike with aero properties.

I doubt the bike is faster than systemsix (which i regret selling), where you can just replace the cockpit for farsports f1, and put some lighter wheels, definitely get rid of power2max and you can be on 7.1kg including pedals maybe. Not mentioning Venge.

Basso Diamante with it's cockpit is not eye pleasing bike imo.

robeambro
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

req110 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:00 am
Filante is 7.09kg on dura ace di2, without pedals, one vico cage, 350g light cockpit, with 42mm wheels (1578g) and vittoria corsa. In my look it looks more like a notlightweight bike with aero properties.

I doubt the bike is faster than systemsix (which i regret selling), where you can just replace the cockpit for farsports f1, and put some lighter wheels, definitely get rid of power2max and you can be on 7.1kg including pedals maybe. Not mentioning Venge.

Basso Diamante with it's cockpit is not eye pleasing bike imo.
But see, this is the biggest misconception about the Tour test. It's testing everything, not just the frame. How much of the aerodynamic prowess of the Systemsix you are losing by swapping wheels and cockpit? Probably a lot. Especially the cockpit. It might be a fugly boat anchor, but even if you compare it with the seemingly aero F1, there's probably a few watts to lose by swapping..

And even the wheels.. Sure, you replace the Knot 64 wheels and you probably lose rim depth, thus reducing aerodynamics. Not only this, the replacement wheels will very likely be narrower than 32mm, which is probably not a random width, but a rim width specifically chosen so that airflow hits the downtube in a specific way.

Once you have swapped all of this, do we know if the SystemSix is still faster than any other average aero bike? I don't think so.

Image

Image

req110
Posts: 153
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:23 am

by req110

Those are valid points.
I would replace knot64 with some 55mm wheels, maybe some light bicycle wheelset under 1500g, so saving 250g compared to knots. I am also interested in 30-32mm wide wheels.
Cockpit, we can go F1 or Metron (50g more).

stepiking
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:26 pm

by stepiking

req110 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:00 am
Filante is 7.09kg on dura ace di2, without pedals, one vico cage, 350g light cockpit, with 42mm wheels (1578g) and vittoria corsa. In my look it looks more like a notlightweight bike with aero properties.
I agree. But I expected from manufacturer's info on frame weights that Filante should be lighter - 870g, 365g cockpit, 360g Fork, 165g seatpost = 1760g. So in theory should end up even lighter than my current Canyon Aeroad CF SLX (980g disc frame. Seatpost 205g, Cockpit 320g, Disc Fork 405g => 1910g) yet the Canyon is 6,92kg without pedals on SRAM eTap HRD, which is even heavier than DA Di2. I have Roval CLX 50 1405g wheelset (the Filante DA Di2 stock config comes with Wilier ULT38 KT DISC wheelset which should be 1390g) S-Works carbon saddle, so weightwise on par with what Wilier has :noidea:

FlatlandClimber
Posts: 938
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

Yoln wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:32 pm
https://wilier.com/sites/default/files/ ... nrader.pdf


Can anyone explain to me how the F10 could reach 202 watts and the Wilier Cento Air 207 with Zipp 404s? Being non aero frames from years ago, I'm wondering if there is a difference in methodology between those and the 2019 tests?
Goes to show that aero testing has a lot of limitations. I have seen tests where the F10 was significantly slower than the S5 (2016), but that probably depends on your protocol. I am pretty sure an F10 is a great bike, but doubt it is more aero than a 2020 aero bike...
Cervélo S5 Disc (2019) - 7.8kg
Open WI.DE (2019) - 8.5kg
Specialized Shiv TT Disc (2020) - 7.9kg
Specialized SW Æthos (2021) 6.4kg
Trek Émonda SLR9 (2021) 6.9kg

*all weights include pedals, computer mounts, speed sensor, and bottle cages.

pmprego
Posts: 986
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

stepiking wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:24 am
req110 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:00 am
Filante is 7.09kg on dura ace di2, without pedals, one vico cage, 350g light cockpit, with 42mm wheels (1578g) and vittoria corsa. In my look it looks more like a notlightweight bike with aero properties.
I agree. But I expected from manufacturer's info on frame weights that Filante should be lighter - 870g, 365g cockpit, 360g Fork, 165g seatpost = 1760g. So in theory should end up even lighter than my current Canyon Aeroad CF SLX (980g disc frame. Seatpost 205g, Cockpit 320g, Disc Fork 405g => 1910g) yet the Canyon is 6,92kg without pedals on SRAM eTap HRD, which is even heavier than DA Di2. I have Roval CLX 50 1405g wheelset (the Filante DA Di2 stock config comes with Wilier ULT38 KT DISC wheelset which should be 1390g) S-Works carbon saddle, so weightwise on par with what Wilier has :noidea:
I've read or saw some video saying that those frame weights were non-painted.

Yoln
Posts: 457
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:17 am
Yoln wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:32 pm
https://wilier.com/sites/default/files/ ... nrader.pdf


Can anyone explain to me how the F10 could reach 202 watts and the Wilier Cento Air 207 with Zipp 404s? Being non aero frames from years ago, I'm wondering if there is a difference in methodology between those and the 2019 tests?
Goes to show that aero testing has a lot of limitations. I have seen tests where the F10 was significantly slower than the S5 (2016), but that probably depends on your protocol. I am pretty sure an F10 is a great bike, but doubt it is more aero than a 2020 aero bike...
F10 is rim brakes, so yes, it's definitely possible it is more aero than a lot of 2020 disc brakes...
Wilier “Cento Ramato“ : viewtopic.php?f=10&t=160943

Lynskey “the Do-it-all Helix” 🧬: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=161550

FlatlandClimber
Posts: 938
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

Yoln wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:00 am
FlatlandClimber wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:17 am
Yoln wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:32 pm
https://wilier.com/sites/default/files/ ... nrader.pdf


Can anyone explain to me how the F10 could reach 202 watts and the Wilier Cento Air 207 with Zipp 404s? Being non aero frames from years ago, I'm wondering if there is a difference in methodology between those and the 2019 tests?
Goes to show that aero testing has a lot of limitations. I have seen tests where the F10 was significantly slower than the S5 (2016), but that probably depends on your protocol. I am pretty sure an F10 is a great bike, but doubt it is more aero than a 2020 aero bike...
F10 is rim brakes, so yes, it's definitely possible it is more aero than a lot of 2020 disc brakes...
They have tested several rim brake aero bikes who all performed worse, so unlikely that alone is enough.
Cervélo S5 Disc (2019) - 7.8kg
Open WI.DE (2019) - 8.5kg
Specialized Shiv TT Disc (2020) - 7.9kg
Specialized SW Æthos (2021) 6.4kg
Trek Émonda SLR9 (2021) 6.9kg

*all weights include pedals, computer mounts, speed sensor, and bottle cages.

by Weenie


Post Reply