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Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:49 am
by RocketRacing
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:12 pm
Pretty much.

So let's just establish that we should choose on looks and optics. I think Spesh Venge looks better than Tarmac, while C-dale Supersix looks better than Systemsix. This is not indended as any sort of a prescription, but as between those two brands, this is how I'd choose.

Still waiting for the damn Canyon Aeroad to be updated, and it looks like my wait's in vain. Going to have to splurge on the Venge.
Agreed on venge>Tarmac. The venge is spot on... except it is specialized. Also agreed on supersix>systemsix.

Looks count imho. I will never buy the fastest bike if it looks ugly. With women, cars and bikes i am allowed to be shallow.

All the 2016 vs 2019 numbers tell us that we are basically at peak aero. What we lose in wider tires we gain with hidden cables.

It is like the slowtwitch tri bike test from a few years back. An old felt tt bike from 2009 was not much slower than the cervello p5x. Average bikes are getting aero chops, but the true aero bikes have been at or near peak aero for some time.

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:35 am
by Shrike
Is it possible that some trad bikes are more aero than their aero equivalents at some yaw angles that are very side on, ie. Supersix faster than Systemsix in crosswinds, or Tarmac faster than Venge in crosswinds etc?

Do the Tour tests allude to anything like that?

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:35 am
by Weenie

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:52 am
by quadlt250
Shrike wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:35 am
Is it possible that some trad bikes are more aero than their aero equivalents at some yaw angles that are very side on, ie. Supersix faster than Systemsix in crosswinds, or Tarmac faster than Venge in crosswinds etc?

Do the Tour tests allude to anything like that?
Likely the opposite, aero bikes "sail" much better in crosswinds than non-aero ones do.

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:12 am
by TobinHatesYou
Look at any wind tunnel data and aero bikes gain even more at higher yaw. It's only at truly ridiculous effective crosswinds, think like...30deg effective yaw where an current aero bike might lose out to a current semi-aero bike.

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:48 am
by Shrike
Is it the same too for deep wheels? Doesn’t feel like it but feel can be deceptive I guess.

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:35 am
by wheelsONfire
It's strange, overhere it seems winds swirl most of the time which have a negative impact on stabilty.

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:11 am
by aeroisnteverything
Not so sure about this - at least not for all conditions. The guy from Swisside at the google talk was saying that when you cannot maintain the front wheel in a straight line this has a significant and detrimental effect on aero efficiency. Wind tunnels, on the other hand, test with the wheel strictly aligned. This is the problem that Hambini was trying to remedy with his test. So while in theory an aero frame with deeper wheels is significantly better and sails at high yaw angles, in practice you might find that gusty, strong side winds require so much micro adjustment of the front wheel and so much extra effort just to keep things pointed the right way, that the overall efficiency is not there anymore. There is a palpable lack of real world data for these sorts of edge cases.

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:14 am
by TobinHatesYou
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:11 am
Not so sure about this - at least not for all conditions. The guy from Swisside at the google talk was saying that when you cannot maintain the front wheel in a straight line this has a significant and detrimental effect on aero efficiency. Wind tunnels, on the other hand, test with the wheel strictly aligned. This is the problem that Hambini was trying to remedy with his test. So while in theory an aero frame with deeper wheels is significantly better and sails at high yaw angles, in practice you might find that gusty, strong side winds require so much micro adjustment of the front wheel and so much extra effort just to keep things pointed the right way, that the overall efficiency is not there anymore. There is a palpable lack of real world data for these sorts of edge cases.

The front wheel steers. Bike frames do not. The recent question was about aero frames, not wheels.

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:21 am
by wheelsONfire
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:11 am
Not so sure about this - at least not for all conditions. The guy from Swisside at the google talk was saying that when you cannot maintain the front wheel in a straight line this has a significant and detrimental effect on aero efficiency. Wind tunnels, on the other hand, test with the wheel strictly aligned. This is the problem that Hambini was trying to remedy with his test. So while in theory an aero frame with deeper wheels is significantly better and sails at high yaw angles, in practice you might find that gusty, strong side winds require so much micro adjustment of the front wheel and so much extra effort just to keep things pointed the right way, that the overall efficiency is not there anymore. There is a palpable lack of real world data for these sorts of edge cases.
Very interesting!
Never heard this before, but this is more a common effect over here. (steering is affected).

For Tobin, isn't this thread name Aero bikes, not framesets?

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:59 am
by TobinHatesYou
wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:21 am

For Tobin, isn't this thread name Aero bikes, not framesets?

I like to decouple components in these comparisons, just as Tour will normalize a secondary dataset with one set of Zipp wheels. It is simple to swap wheels on windy days to avoid getting blown around...that is unless you only own one set of wheels and they are very deep. This seems unlikely. An aero bike won't really be noticeably more jittery than a semi-aero bike when the wheels are removed from the equation. An aero bike might even be more stable than a round tubed bike in realistic crosswind conditions.

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:02 am
by demoCRIT
Is there similar list/data for TT bikes (or Tri bikes)?

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:43 pm
by gbrnole
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:14 am
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:11 am
Not so sure about this - at least not for all conditions. The guy from Swisside at the google talk was saying that when you cannot maintain the front wheel in a straight line this has a significant and detrimental effect on aero efficiency. Wind tunnels, on the other hand, test with the wheel strictly aligned. This is the problem that Hambini was trying to remedy with his test. So while in theory an aero frame with deeper wheels is significantly better and sails at high yaw angles, in practice you might find that gusty, strong side winds require so much micro adjustment of the front wheel and so much extra effort just to keep things pointed the right way, that the overall efficiency is not there anymore. There is a palpable lack of real world data for these sorts of edge cases.

The front wheel steers. Bike frames do not. The recent question was about aero frames, not wheels.
It's a fair point but the fork is part of the frame and equally involved in the steering. Relatively speaking, what a frame does at very high yaw angles is immaterial when deep-section wheels are stalling out at about 15 degrees or so?

I regularly ride a loop near an airport where high wind and high yaw angles are often experienced. It's an odd feeling when you feel it, especially the rear wheel when it reaches its stall angle - feels like the brake is being lightly applied or someone tugging on your pocket.

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:23 pm
by TobinHatesYou
gbrnole wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:43 pm

It's a fair point but the fork is part of the frame and equally involved in the steering. Relatively speaking, what a frame does at very high yaw angles is immaterial when deep-section wheels are stalling out at about 15 degrees or so?

I regularly ride a loop near an airport where high wind and high yaw angles are often experienced. It's an odd feeling when you feel it, especially the rear wheel when it reaches its stall angle - feels like the brake is being lightly applied or someone tugging on your pocket.

The fork doesn’t stretch much beyond the steering axis so it’s producing much less of a rudder effect. The reason why some wheels grab hard in the wind is because the front of the wheel and rear of the wheel see differing side forces.

But like you said, handlingwise the aero frame doesn’t matter when the front wheel is the weak point. So choose appropriate wheels for the wind conditions that day. If you only own one set of wheels, they probably shouldn’t been super deep.

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:44 pm
by AJS914
Some interesting aero talk in cyclingtips first nerd alert podcast:

https://cyclingtips.com/2019/07/nerd-al ... de-simple/

Best bang for the buck seems to be:

shave legs
positioning
tight fitting kit - no wrinkles
helmet
wheels
frame


The other interesting point was that tight fitting kit, aero wheels, and an aero frame all provide around the same benefit.

Unfortunately they didn't mention aero/integrated handlebar but my understanding is that that is worth about half an aero helmet.

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:44 pm
by Weenie

Re: *Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:43 pm
by Sulliesbrew
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:22 pm
Lugan wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:56 pm

+1! Speaking of which, I am looking forward to reviews of the new Parlee RZ7. Simultaneously, I promise to continue to train hard and smart, ride low, wear tight kit, and numerous other tweaks to create my own big pile of marginal gains. Pursuing marginal gains is fun; sort of a hobby.
I have not even noticed the Parlee release! Nice looking bike and 870g frame (unpainted?) is quite good. Would indeed be interesting to see the reviews.

I’ve had mine for a few weeks now. It is an incredible machine. I have HED Vanquish 6s on it. Weighs in at 18 lbs 2oz with pedals, cages, computer mount. I went with the ultegra Di2 build.