*Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Richards1987
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed May 29, 2019 11:07 pm

by Richards1987

Does anyone know if you can put a different bar and stem on the 2019 Trek Madone SLR Rim Brake? I am looking at buying the Trek Madone and am trying to bring its weight down as close to 6.8kg as possible and believe the madone specific stem and handlebar is quite heavy (>500 grams). Was thinging the 3T Aeronova team stealth handlebars and 3T ARX LTD stealth stem?

by Weenie


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VTR1000SP2
Posts: 641
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:21 pm

by VTR1000SP2

Richards1987 wrote:Does anyone know if you can put a different bar and stem on the 2019 Trek Madone SLR Rim Brake? I am looking at buying the Trek Madone and am trying to bring its weight down as close to 6.8kg as possible and believe the madone specific stem and handlebar is quite heavy (>500 grams). Was thinging the 3T Aeronova team stealth handlebars and 3T ARX LTD stealth stem?
I believe the new SLR cannot, yet. There isn’t a top cap/dust cover/headset bearing cover part available yet that fits the new frame but with the release of the Madone SL, this may change. The part from the SL should theoretically fit the SLR allowing for the bar and stem to be changed out.


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Richards1987
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed May 29, 2019 11:07 pm

by Richards1987

Ok, so it looks as if I may just have to run with the madone specific stem and handle bar system in the short term and look to save weight elsewhere. It is just the frame set I am looking at buying and swithing my dura ace di2 9100 groupset over. I race one dura ace c50 tubulars so this may come pretty close to 6.8kg in a size 52 in any case.

RocketRacing
Posts: 676
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 2:43 am

by RocketRacing

poppiholla wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 3:23 pm
Maybe the Specialissima is not used that often anymore because the frameset is not the strongest and in Grand tours/ there are a lot of crashes. Besides that the Oltre is also pretty light, aero and maybe stronger in its construction?
The marginal gains podcast on materials will be interesting. I think one thing josh hinted is that crr, cda, weight, wind, power, weather can be used to predict course speeds quite accuratly... but frame stiffness is not part of the equation. And maybe stiff is better is kind of like “high tire pressures are better”... and that is not valid.

For powerful riders, and heavy riders... stiffness probably helps. But how much, if at all does it help to make us faster, or slow us down?

andreas
Posts: 129
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:21 pm

by andreas

Considering the manufacturers use different layups and carbon materials both within the same frame and between frames for different segments, stiffer certainly isn't always better. More like "stiff in the right places is better for power transfer and some handling characteristics".

cajer
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:26 am

by cajer

Richards1987 wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 11:37 am
Ok, so it looks as if I may just have to run with the madone specific stem and handle bar system in the short term and look to save weight elsewhere. It is just the frame set I am looking at buying and swithing my dura ace di2 9100 groupset over. I race one dura ace c50 tubulars so this may come pretty close to 6.8kg in a size 52 in any case.
You can there’s an adapter I will be doing that myself. As the integrated bar stem done fit me

RocketRacing
Posts: 676
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 2:43 am

by RocketRacing

Intergrated bikes are a bit of a fitters nightmare.

Richards1987
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed May 29, 2019 11:07 pm

by Richards1987

cajer wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 8:11 pm
Richards1987 wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 11:37 am
Ok, so it looks as if I may just have to run with the madone specific stem and handle bar system in the short term and look to save weight elsewhere. It is just the frame set I am looking at buying and swithing my dura ace di2 9100 groupset over. I race one dura ace c50 tubulars so this may come pretty close to 6.8kg in a size 52 in any case.
You can there’s an adapter I will be doing that myself. As the integrated bar stem done fit me
Great, that will help. Are you able to tell me what the adapter is and where you can get it from? Interested to know what bar and stem set up you are going to be using? TIA.

cajer
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:26 am

by cajer

I’m not sure what the part number is, but you should be able to get it from your Trek dealer. I was planning on using the Venge stem and a Enve aeroroad bar. I would prefer Venge stem with Venge bars, for better hidden cable routing, but the Venge bars are almost backordered till November

Jack65
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:40 pm

by Jack65

Very interesting discussion. Especially that I'm a father of a perfect test "guinea pig", 15-year old, top 10 U17 road time trialists in my country, averaging around 300 watts in 10 km time trial on a standard bike (no aero bars allowed) with aero wheels of maximum depth of 90 mm and with 46x14 gear allowed. Same kid averages 50 km/h in a 2km time trial on a velodrome with full aero gear allowed. Aero bars and disc wheels.

Correct me me if you think I'm wrong, but here is my observations:

Aero frame vs regular road race frame - 15-20 watts
Aero skinsuit - 10-15 watts
Decreasing your body aerodynamic drag by 5% - 15 watts
Aero helmet - 5-10 watts
Aero cockpit (stem+handlebar) - 4-5 watts
Aero overshoes - 2 watts
Removing QR skewers and replacing them with aero ones - 2 watts
Better tire selection (faster and 105% rule) - up to 5 watts
Better aero wheels selection - up to 10 watts
Ceramic everything marketing hype - 2-4 watts
Better, fresh and/or waxed chain - 2 watts
Bike weight on flat course - EXTREMELY OVERRATED

Crucial sources od information:
https://road.cc/content/feature/213876- ... ind-tunnel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUUh_QeNRVE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcdwTRh3sGo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWDmbKzf3ig

From the practical tests I've observed in our U17 category in 10 km road time trial and 2km velodrome time trial, here are my conclusion.
A kid, let's call him #1, beats all the rest on the velodrome by 2 seconds in 2km time trial. He is the strongest and fastest. On the velodrome he has nearly the same equipment as his competitors. Good carbon frame with aerobars, disc and trispoke wheels, aero helmet, aero suit (not skinsuit).
He is known to be best road time triallist as well. But this year he faces 3 very strong competitors, 1 year younger, on the road.
#2 and #3 from Kwiato Road Cycling Academy
They both use Trek Madone, with low drag rim brakes (not sure which model) and aero cockpit, Kask aero helmet, aero overshoes, Zipp 404 58mm aero wheels
#1 uses Trek Emonda, 90mm deep aero wheels, FFWD if I'm correct, aero overshoes and aero Laser helmet. From the photos I assume he creates slightly more aerodynamic drag than #2 and # 3 because of his hand position (#2 and #3 using prying position) and slighly elevated head
This probably compensates with his wheel advantage beacuse his competitors use wheels with smaller height profile
#4 (my son) is using Specialized SL4 Comp with standard alu round handlebar cockpit, old Giro aero helmet, no overshoes, reasonable but not yet optimized position.

#2 and 3 beat #4 by 20-30 seconds. #2, thinner, Roglic type is always first, #3, thicker, Sagan type usually second. And they beat #4, Roglic type by another 5 seconds. We are talking flat course.

So where is their advantage? It has to be in the frame/bike and position. I guess frame/bike setup must save them around 20 watts resulting in 20 seconds advantage. And this is the difference you will observe in velodrome tests between for example Merida Scultura and Merida Reacto in the youtube videoes I linked. It seems consistent overall between non aero racing bikes and aero optimized bikes.

We are planning to do the tests with both Trek Madone and Venge Vias 2016. As we can have access to both. I will keep you informed.

robeambro
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

Jack65 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:32 am
Very interesting discussion. Especially that I'm a father of a perfect test "guinea pig", 15-year old, top 10 U17 road time trialists in my country, averaging around 300 watts in 10 km time trial on a standard bike (no aero bars allowed) with aero wheels of maximum depth of 90 mm and with 46x14 gear allowed. Same kid averages 50 km/h in a 2km time trial on a velodrome with full aero gear allowed. Aero bars and disc wheels.

Correct me me if you think I'm wrong, but here is my observations:

Aero frame vs regular road race frame - 15-20 watts
Aero skinsuit - 10-15 watts
Decreasing your body aerodynamic drag by 5% - 15 watts
Aero helmet - 5-10 watts
Aero cockpit (stem+handlebar) - 4-5 watts
Aero overshoes - 2 watts
Removing QR skewers and replacing them with aero ones - 2 watts
Better tire selection (faster and 105% rule) - up to 5 watts
Better aero wheels selection - up to 10 watts
Ceramic everything marketing hype - 2-4 watts
Better, fresh and/or waxed chain - 2 watts
Bike weight on flat course - EXTREMELY OVERRATED
Provided that most of these make sense only when you specify "better than what" (eg. better tyres vs Gatorskins or vs GP4000, better aero wheels vs a box section alloy or vs average 40mm carbon rims?), I think that better tyre selection can be more important than that, 5w can be found on RR gains alone (source: https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.co ... ke-reviews), ignoring the aero gains of the rim-to-tyre interaction.

Other than this, position is probably an endless pit, you can always find potential gains there but they must translate onto the road.

Jack65
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:40 pm

by Jack65

By better tire selection I meant going from fast to ultra fast tires. We currently have chinese generic 88mm aero wheels with DT Swiss DT240s hubs and Conti Competition Speed tubular tires. I'm currently consulting our aero setup with aerodynamic expert who is training in Boardman center in UK and trying to break national 1 hour record on the velodrome. According to him, Vittoria Corsa Speed tubular or if you have clincher version, Vittoria Corsa Speed with latex tube can save you up to 3 watts per wheel.

As far as wheels are concerned, Please go through Swiss Side wind tunnel study in the link I provided. It is very interesting to notice that going from 485mm rims to 625 mm rims gives you around 1 watt. Going from 625 to 80mm gives you around 7 watts at extreme yaw angles. So probably not more than 5 watts on average. If you go through latest tech gallery from Giro TT, many teams used tubeless tires for front wheel, and some tubeless discs at the back.

I also suspect that full carbon wheels don't have much advantage vs hybrid alu-carbon wheels. Notice that both Swiss Side and UK Aerocoach developed hybrid wheels that could rival top brand full carbon wheels. So i guess difference is very small and for us mere mortals, they could be better choice. I've been using FFWD F6R-C for years. I tested some full carbon clinchers like Roval CL64 and DT Swiss 55mm and I haven't noticed much "free speed" by moving to them. So i guess if difference is beyond my perception it must be so small (less than 5 watts) that it makes sense to use fastest wheels in time trial, but good braking on alu rim may outweight very small speed benefits in group rides or local amateur races. My son is currently racing on another set of FFWD F6R-C and we don't feel that they hold him back at flat races. But on the other side, he had numerous crashes and many spokes ripped off. These wheels are bomb-proof. While competitors full carbon rims sometimes didn't survive these crashes. Same goes for some top carbon frames. The ones that I see broken are usually S-Works or other top of the line, extremely light, so extremely thin frames. Lower grade, thicker carbon usually survives. And our lower grade Spec Tarmac SL4 frame is a best example. And we all know that if you race often you will crash. It is inevitable.

Also a word of caution regarding carbon handlebars. Nearly none of them survived even one crash. We had two Specialized Aerofly and one Zipp carbon bars broken this year in our club, first time they hit the ground. I've seen other competitors having similiar experience.

robeambro
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

To be honest I think you researched far more, and are interested in far smaller details, than the 99% of folks around here, myself included of course. Most of us are merely trying not to trash too many watts and don't really consult with aerodynamics experts.. :mrgreen:

The only thing I can think of is, upgrading the frame could probably yield quite a few watts, and you can do so without going for a higher carbon layout which will be more delicate in nature. Heck, I think some open mold aero frames from China might be faster than the SL4, or even an Allez Sprint...

And, your list does not mention aero socks. Probably your son uses them, but there's a few watts there as well.

Jack65
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:40 pm

by Jack65

Aero Overshoes will be used. Velotoze or similair.

As for chinese carbon aero frames, I see many PlanetX aero track frames on the velodrome. And they seem to be pretty good.

For us, amateurs, I love my Spec Roubaix. But certainly it's not a very efficient bike. One of the easiest ways for us for saving watts is wheel sucking :) As well as lowering position and learning how to ride in aero hoods position. Steve from "In the know cycling" has very good review of latest aeroroad helmets and they do seem to save some watts.

As for weight vs erodynamics, I first appeared on local group rides many years ago with 15kg trekking bike. After mounting cheapest aerobar I was able to sustain 36-38 km/h speed with them. It is also worth noting tha Ondrei Sosenka, who has beaten an hour world record, was using 3kg wheel at the back (http://www.wolfgang-menn.de/sosenka.htm).

bremerradkurier
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:18 pm

by bremerradkurier

Jack65 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:21 am
Aero Overshoes will be used. Velotoze or similair.

As for chinese carbon aero frames, I see many PlanetX aero track frames on the velodrome. And they seem to be pretty good.

For us, amateurs, I love my Spec Roubaix. But certainly it's not a very efficient bike. One of the easiest ways for us for saving watts is wheel sucking :) As well as lowering position and learning how to ride in aero hoods position. Steve from "In the know cycling" has very good review of latest aeroroad helmets and they do seem to save some watts.

As for weight vs erodynamics, I first appeared on local group rides many years ago with 15kg trekking bike. After mounting cheapest aerobar I was able to sustain 36-38 km/h speed with them. It is also worth noting tha Ondrei Sosenka, who has beaten an hour world record, was using 3kg wheel at the back (http://www.wolfgang-menn.de/sosenka.htm).
A close wheelsucker will reduce the front rider's drag by around 3% as well.

by Weenie


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