*Tour Aero Bike Test 2019*

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
AJS914
Posts: 3114
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

You'd also have to factor in the downhill on the other side. Very few amateurs get mountain top finishes.

by Weenie


RyanH
Moderator
Posts: 2533
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:01 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

by RyanH

That rule of thumb is just a general guide, but amateurs do exceed those speeds on those grades:

4% grade, 6.7km long at 28.9kmh:
https://www.strava.com/activities/19793 ... /7141/7988

6% grade, 7.1km long, 21 kmh:
https://www.strava.com/activities/18439 ... /8738/9977

If your Tarmac weighed exactly the same as the Venge, why would you choose the Tarmac over the Venge? To me, the Wilier climbed the same as the Focus Izalco Max (except it made noises because disc is awesome). If the two bikes weighed exactly the same, I'd hands down choose the Wilier since it descended like no other bike I've owned (except the Evo).

mr2scott
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:39 pm

by mr2scott

I did a 6% hill thats 4km @20.2 km/h the other day. It was my best time up that hill, on an aero bike (system six) thats almost 18 pounds, and into a slight headwind.

Previous best was a few seconds slower, drafting others, with a tail wind on a 14 pound bike, but a few watts less.

cajer
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:26 am

by cajer

robertbb wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:08 am
cajer wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:36 am
Calnago wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:49 am
@cajer: I’ve ridden the rim brake Madone. And if you’ve been around here for any kind of time at all you likely know I’m not the world’s biggest fan of disc brakes on high end road race bikes. However, I do insist on good braking, regardless of whether it’s rim or disc and have to say I felt the Madone’s brakes are not up to a standard I can appreciate any more than a “meh, they work, sorta” kinda way. As such I’d say go disc brake if you go with the Madone.
Thanks allot for the detailed response. Do you happen to remember which wheels you were riding them with? As if it was with carbon wheels that had a bad braking surface, I might be able to live with it/maybe better wheels would improve it. However if it’s aluminum or good braking carbon wheels I’ll go disc.
Why not ride both and decide for yourself, rather than relying on someone elses experience?
Unfortunately I can’t find a shop with a rim brake Madone to try out. It’s hard to believe especially as I live in San Francisco. I am going to be driving two hours to try out a disc brake Madone

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 7954
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Noctiluxx wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:37 am
Colnago needs to mention the rim brake Madone he rode is the previous generation. I own the new 2019 SLR (rim brake) and have ridden the previous vesrion (2018) with Zipp 404 NSW's close to 1000 miles. The current rim brake version with Bontrager XXX 6 wheels has vastly superior braking to previous generation. The brake caliper placement has been moved and provides far better torque than the 2018 model. I have four rim brake road bikes with the Madone having the best braking, overall.
@Noctiluxx, I did mention the distinction 3 posts up from the post above. Brakes are essentially the same as last year, only the placement is different. Same tedious and painful setup, same adjustments, same functionality. I would not be surprised if two rim madones from this year, last year, or a mix of the two years all felt significantly different due to the difficulty in setting up the brakes perfectly, but the difference would be in the setup and not due to the brakes themselves.

@cajer, if you haven't done so already, you should have a look at this thread I'm linking to below. The choice is obviously yours, but in my opinion, the disc is a better way to go on this frame. Even though it's an aero bike, and the aeroness of a rim brake is superior to disc, and even though I just really like rim brakes on the highest level road bikes, I couldn't in good conscience recommend the rim brakes on the Madone over disc to anyone...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=155653&hilit=Madone ... 0#p1468766
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 7954
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

cyclespeed wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:36 pm
In the real world, I would definitely query the '6%' figure for swapping aero for climbing bike.

6% is a decent hill and most amateur riders will be at around 15kmh, a speed too low for aero to have any significant effect. Climbing feel and efficiency are far more important here.

Even a 4% hill will see most below 20kmh which is still not fast enough for aero to kick in IMO.

(I'm talking about climbs of at least 5kms).

I have been on Tarmacs for many years and currently have an Sworks SL6. I climb quite a bit. No way would I swap my Tarmac for a Venge or S5 on a 6% climb.
Completely agree... the real world and aero can be very different realities.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

robeambro
Posts: 458
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

RyanH wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:10 pm
That rule of thumb is just a general guide, but amateurs do exceed those speeds on those grades:
An amateur who rides 6 days a week for ~12h a week is not quite what I'd define representative for the average cyclist.. And, at least for the very first segment which is the only one I opened, the data is skewed a little bit as it includes bit of descending at quite high speeds.

Only to dot the i's and cross the t's.

robeambro
Posts: 458
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

cyclespeed wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:36 pm
In the real world, I would definitely query the '6%' figure for swapping aero for climbing bike.

6% is a decent hill and most amateur riders will be at around 15kmh, a speed too low for aero to have any significant effect. Climbing feel and efficiency are far more important here.

Even a 4% hill will see most below 20kmh which is still not fast enough for aero to kick in IMO.

(I'm talking about climbs of at least 5kms).

I have been on Tarmacs for many years and currently have an Sworks SL6. I climb quite a bit. No way would I swap my Tarmac for a Venge or S5 on a 6% climb.
For a not-so-fast amateur (eg. myself), the threshold can be as low as 4%.

I plugged in the CdA figures from a few posts before, a 4% course @ 170w which is admittedly a bit low even for myself, and assumed a 500gr weight penalty for the aero bike (before you guys jump on me, Venge aside, most other aero bikes are quite beefy. And anyway the CdA's used have a Tarmac w/o aerobars.. So let's say it's roughly compensating..)

Optimise your CdA/Kg is the way :smartass:
Attachments
aw.PNG
Last edited by robeambro on Tue May 14, 2019 8:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

RocketRacing
Posts: 609
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 2:43 am

by RocketRacing

Yeah, the faster/more powerful the rider... the higher grade it takes before a light bike outweighs aero. But how light? And how aero is also part of it.

It is like that gcn video where buddy want to kom a local climb. The zipp engineers did the math and for the speeds that he would need to go to break the kom, the 808’s were the fastest option.

Another rough rule of thumb in different words: aero gains are marginal below 15km/hr (ignoring wind). So another way of putting it... if a climb is steep enough to make you go slower than 15km/hr... than weight savings would start to play an importance over aero gains.

User avatar
cveks
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:15 pm
Contact:

by cveks

I own two bikes

One is Argon 18 Gallium Pro with Sram Red mechanical groupset weights with aluminium training wheels around 6.8 kg without pedals

Other is Bianchi Oltre XR4 , aero bike with Campagnolo Super Record and carbon 50 mm tubular wheelset. It weights almost same

I prefer ride of Argon 18 especially for hills , it feels much more versatile and easier to accelerate.

I rode same hilly circle of 100 kms with both bikes and I feel like Bianchi takes 30% more energy from me than Argon 18.

So I prefer climbing frames than aero frames.

Aero is great for flats though. Bianchi feels like on rail tracks on flats.

For mainly solo riders like me climbing bike is much better.

Aero bike works better in big groups, races.... Without many hills of course.

RocketRacing
Posts: 609
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 2:43 am

by RocketRacing

I think the solution is to own an aero bike with all choices made in the flavour of aero (bottles, etc). The second bike needs to be full weight weenie. Then choose based on what fits your fancy that day.

User avatar
wheelsONfire
Posts: 2674
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

It's proven placebo effect works (even wonders for some), so whatever floats your boat (what you believe in), would probably help no matter what data says.
But remember, as soon as a new model of your beloved aero-bike sees the light of day, yours is the fault you can't go faster.
Always blame the bike :mrgreen:
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

mrlobber
Posts: 886
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:36 am
Location: Where the permanent autumn is

by mrlobber

wheelsONfire wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:33 am
But remember, as soon as a new model of your beloved aero-bike sees the light of day, yours is the fault you can't go faster.
This.
RocketRacing wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:35 pm
I think the solution is to own an aero bike with all choices made in the flavour of aero (bottles, etc). The second bike needs to be full weight weenie. Then choose based on what fits your fancy that day.
And even more, this.
Retired bikes: Cervelo S5 2015 / Felt AR FRD 2014 / Cannondale SS HM 2014 / Scott Addict SL 2014 / Scott Plasma Premium 2014 / Orbea Orca 2008 / Look 596 /

cunn1n9
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:24 am

by cunn1n9

RocketRacing wrote:I think the solution is to own an aero bike with all choices made in the flavour of aero (bottles, etc). The second bike needs to be full weight weenie. Then choose based on what fits your fancy that day.
Well this is great for the industry turnover as we all now have multiple specialist bikes.

With where we are now I reckon you can have one all rounder that does everything pretty good:
- offers great ride quality
- is stuff and agile
- handles great
- looks great
- is fairly light but doesn’t have to be over the top light
- is fairly aero but doesn’t have to be over the top aero

How about the
Tarmac
R5
Dogma
Etc

These give a great mix and lose nothing in the scheme of things in any meaningful way to.

I remember reading recently Pinarello saying they didn’t want two bikes and they could build one that was a very good compromise. This I agree with.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
cyclespeed
Posts: 616
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:45 am

by cyclespeed

RyanH wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:10 pm
That rule of thumb is just a general guide, but amateurs do exceed those speeds on those grades:

4% grade, 6.7km long at 28.9kmh:
https://www.strava.com/activities/19793 ... /7141/7988

6% grade, 7.1km long, 21 kmh:
https://www.strava.com/activities/18439 ... /8738/9977

If your Tarmac weighed exactly the same as the Venge, why would you choose the Tarmac over the Venge? To me, the Wilier climbed the same as the Focus Izalco Max (except it made noises because disc is awesome). If the two bikes weighed exactly the same, I'd hands down choose the Wilier since it descended like no other bike I've owned (except the Evo).
I too can go up 4% at about 28kmh on a good day but that's pushing hard, and I don't think most amateur riders usually go up that quickly.

What you cannot quantify on paper though is the feel of the bike, in and out of the saddle, and as someone else has said, how well it descends, because almost always you have to come down the other side......and that's where you can put literally minutes into a competitor that cannot descend well.

I am wary of anything that deadens feel or makes climbing uncomfortable. Of course I haven't tried all aero bikes, but a few, and I have heard many stories from friends that find them unresponsive when climbing (and descending).

by Weenie


Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post