*Tour Aero Bike Tests*

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Nereth
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:18 am

by Nereth

The point of the saw tooth has always been to reduce steering moments and instability in dynamic conditions, allowing you to ride deeper wheels than otherwise possible in said conditions.

Tour magazine also inadvertently tested the old 404 against old 454, when they did the 2016 aeroad which came stock with 454, and released that result next to the same bike with 404 standard wheels being used as. control. They were close in that test, but 404 was slightly faster. I think a watt or two.

Alastair2308
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:16 am

by Alastair2308

aeroisnteverything wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:09 am
Nereth wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:57 pm
...Hambini tested last gens against last gens 404. The 404 tested in the top third of his lineup, around 55 to 65mm wheels. The 454 ranked in the bottom quarter, below the 303, around a lot of other 30 and 40mm wheels, bar some really poor performing flo 60s which got a specific call out for that.
...
Hambini never tested anything at all, and you should forget you ever saw that chart. Zipp/SRAM, I am sure, did test their wheels, and if the sawtooth profile is a failure, they could easily have reversed themselves in the 2nd generation of it (i.e., just dropped it). I don't know whether it has a measurable benefit over a conventional wheel profile in terms of drag (rather than stability), but it sure is more difficult from a manufacturing standpoint, and if it performs worse, why make the effort?

Don't get me wrong, I am as cynical as the next guy about the bike/component manufacturers being serial bullsh1tters in terms what they claim vs reality, but in this particular case, I just fail to see a good reason for Zipp to knowingly go with a solution that is worse from aero perspective for their top of the line wheelset.
I would believe Hambini's chart over what the shill media spits out any day of the week. And Hambini isn't the only guy who feels the 454s are slow. So. Yeah. Everything I have seen plus the way they feel and they don't feel great, leads many to the conclusion that the 454s are slow. Why double down if they are a failure? There have been many cases where a company doubles down on a failing product, relentlessly trying to claw back lost R&D and production costs. It wouldn't be the first time and it wouldnt be the last.

by Weenie


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Kayrehn
Posts: 1776
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:06 pm

by Kayrehn

I don't own any zipp wheels, don't like Hambini videos, but it's totally believable to me that Zipp will continue to sell 454s even if it's 50% less aero than a conventional rim. Simply looking radically different and marketing it as being groundbreaking design in aero wheels will make it sell like hotcakes. They are in the biz to make money, not to provide the most aerodynamic equipment for the cycling world.

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ichobi
Posts: 1793
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm

by ichobi

I see no reason the sawtooth profile would be faster if you compare it too the rim depth of the sawtooth’s highest point. A 353 should be compared to a 303 rather than a 404 for example. A full 60mm depth would always be faster than the sawtooth equivalence. Zipp wouldbt be seen claiming their 404 is faster than 454 for sure given the latter is more expensive.

otnemem
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:55 am

by otnemem

Nereth wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:22 am
They were close in that test, but 404 was slightly faster. I think a watt or two.
This is the reason why Zipp - who a few years ago were huge fans of sharing wind tunnel tests comparing every wheelset and their mothers - stopped sharing data. Now it's all generic and subjective marketing talk.

Roadrocket
Posts: 355
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:43 am
Location: Slovakia

by Roadrocket

aeroisnteverything wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:09 am
Nereth wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:57 pm
...Hambini tested last gens against last gens 404. The 404 tested in the top third of his lineup, around 55 to 65mm wheels. The 454 ranked in the bottom quarter, below the 303, around a lot of other 30 and 40mm wheels, bar some really poor performing flo 60s which got a specific call out for that.
...
Hambini never tested anything at all, and you should forget you ever saw that chart.
Can you backup your claim? Hambini is not my favorite and I´m not going to blindly trust any of the online aero tests, but a claim that someone faked all his aero results and never tested anything requires some evidence.

cajer
Posts: 673
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:26 am

by cajer

Some of the big aero field testing people on slow twitch also said the 858 is super slow. So I would believe that the 454 is super slow.

Also I think there were four tests at one point also showing the same

spartan
Posts: 1747
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:52 am

by spartan

tour mag test a bunch of 60mm wheels a year ago. dtswiss was fastest the zipp 454 were 1.5 watts slower.
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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12455
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Which seems about right when comparing a 62mm rim to a 53/58mm deep one.

The 454s aren't slow... they just aren't the best for outright straightline speed from an aerodynamic standpoint. That was never the claim either.

kgibbo1868
Posts: 425
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:36 pm

by kgibbo1868

Has anyone actually had their hands on Simplon? I still haven’t seen one in the wild yet, but I am very curious about build quality and general impressions.


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BigBoyND
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 1:51 am
Location: Berlin, DE

by BigBoyND

Roadrocket wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:11 pm
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:09 am
Nereth wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:57 pm
...Hambini tested last gens against last gens 404. The 404 tested in the top third of his lineup, around 55 to 65mm wheels. The 454 ranked in the bottom quarter, below the 303, around a lot of other 30 and 40mm wheels, bar some really poor performing flo 60s which got a specific call out for that.
...
Hambini never tested anything at all, and you should forget you ever saw that chart.
Can you backup your claim? Hambini is not my favorite and I´m not going to blindly trust any of the online aero tests, but a claim that someone faked all his aero results and never tested anything requires some evidence.
Burden of proof is on the other party. When asked, he never proved that he did. He shared a chart and had zero evidence (corroboration, pictures, source data, etc.) that the testing actually happened. None.

There were oddities around his results. Some at odds with other tests. It foesnt help that he "tested" so many wheels, given the amount of resources that would take.

When people asked for any proof that the tests actually happened, he just said "It's top secret. The tests are real. Trust me."

So there are many reasons to be skeptical, and none that should make you believe the tests actually happened.

Maddie
Posts: 1530
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:44 am

by Maddie

Exactly. When I was able to watch tests in two different wind tunnels, pictures never had been an issue. And why would it be? It's a room with a turbine. Maybe a different story @Nasa though...

CarlosTheJackal
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:56 pm

by CarlosTheJackal

Maddie wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:29 am
Exactly. When I was able to watch tests in two different wind tunnels, pictures never had been an issue. And why would it be? It's a room with a turbine. Maybe a different story @Nasa though...
It doesn't look like Boeing or Airbus freely post their photographs on the internet other than library shots.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12455
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

CarlosTheJackal wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:18 pm
Maddie wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:29 am
Exactly. When I was able to watch tests in two different wind tunnels, pictures never had been an issue. And why would it be? It's a room with a turbine. Maybe a different story @Nasa though...
It doesn't look like Boeing or Airbus freely post their photographs on the internet other than library shots.

He doesn’t even have photos of the wheels he supposedly tested, but he does share complete videos on Chinese-brand wheels he receives for free. You’d think such comprehensive testing would come with other analyses, observations on the finish, stiffness testing, trueness/roundness, hub design, etc.

pedalbasher
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:35 am

by pedalbasher

In the market for an all-out aero race bike this year.

Scott Foil RC Pro looks tasty, and light enough in a decent spec not to frustrate me in the occasional mountains.

Any thoughts on that vs competitors? Open to suggestions :)

Wonder how the new Foil and Madone will score in Tour test.

Thanks!

by Weenie


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