CAAD12 Campagnolo Groupset and Colnago C60 Campagnolo builds...

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
3Pio
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

lirek15 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:19 pm
3Pio wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:25 pm
lirek15 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:14 pm
3Pio wrote:
Thanks.. For ur reply.. How long u have Wishbone BB?

I noticed that CAAD12 can be perfect geometry for me (as i can see between Colnago 50S i have now and 48S which is on the smaller side for me), and also not expensive and lightweight..

So started to think if can work as a winter bike (which mean rain, not so good weather).. And then i found out BB problems with Cannondale..

So How long u have Wishbone BB? And for removing/installing.. Do u need some special tools, or everything is provided with the purchase of BB?
I’ve had mine for about 10k km now.
No special tools needed. Same tool as you would use for a campagnolo BSA BB.


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Thanks.. I tried to find Wishbone BB for Campy Ultra Torque and BB30A, but seem is out of stock on ebay.. Can u please provide me the link where did u bought urs?

Is it BB3025C 68mm for Campy ULTRA TORQUE-BK model?
I bought them off their site directly. Ebay was also out of stock when i was looking for mine.
Just send them an email from their site contact info. Shipping to Canada took 3 days.

http://www.wishbonetw.com/product-1.php?id=31

Thanks.. I send an e-mail to Wishbone on their site yesterday, but still no reply.. But anyway probably will try first Campagnolo cups, so will see how it will work...
Calnago wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:22 pm
Yeah, the primer is for use with inactive substrates like titanium and carbon. I’ve tried threadlocker on ti bolts before without the primer and it doesn’t work nearly as well as with. In fact on removal it was more of a goo than dried and cured. But really, in your case I’d just use a bit of the AquaProof Paste, which you already have, after cleaning up the surfaces like you mention. Ive been really happy with just using that, and reserve the retaining compound for the “problem” children.

Thanks Cal... I'll go first Campy BB30A cups and just Morgan Blue AquaProofPaste.. Another reason why i'll go this way, is because could not find single experience using this cups and Campy Ultra Torque on the net, so willing to experiment and share my experience...

Now another dilemma.. Should i build this frame as budget bike (Centaur/Potenza), or maybe go a bit higher end like Chorus/Record? Still dont have idea if this frameset deserve to be build as bike which is more toward HighEnd, or this will definetely be my budget bike.. Probably i'll wait few days until frameset arrive, and will decide based on actual weight/quality of the frameset... In any way the wheels will be Shamal Ultra or Bora One (35/50), which will switch between bikes..
joejack951 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:50 pm
3Pio wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:38 am
While waiting for the frameset, i tried to find out out Loctite 7649 and 609. I sourced 609 easy and cheap, but seem that 7649 not available easy or cheap. I never used Loctite/Primer on BB, so that why im asking.. Is it absolutely needed to use 7649 primer, or i can use just 609 with detailed cleaning of BB cups and BB area in the frame with some Acetone or Isopropyl Alcohol?
Loctite 7471 is another option so long as you are not working in extreme cold (<5°C). You don't absolutely need the primer as the gaps should be plenty small but you will get slightly better adhesion to any anodized aluminum in the mix (Campy cups are anodized).

http://www.loctite.co.uk/loctite-4087.h ... 2628534273
Thanks for ur explanation.. I wont work in cold (more in 20-25 C temperature), so seem that i have option....

3Pio
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Ok.. Need to clear one more thing...

In meanwhike i contact Cannondale to ask what they think of installing Campy Ultra Torque crankset using Campy BB cups.. And this is what i got as reply:

"Our Cannondale Caad12 uses a 73mm wide bottom bracket shell and requires a longer psindle. We equipped our bikes with a Cannondale Crankset that utilizes a 109mm spindle. We do not think the Campy crankset will work on the Caad12 because Campy does not offer the correct length or 30mm spindle.
"


From the other side, if campy decide to offer BB30A BB Cups, i guess they wont do it if does not work?

So should i continue Campy Crankset way, or im stucked with Cannondale propriety crankset? What other options i have for this?

Even i have to make compromise in term of crankset (i prefer that i wont need to make this compromise and will be still workable with Campy ), other parts in the groupset i still prefer to be Campagnolo. I guess in that case beside different brand Crankset from the groupset it will still work?

by Weenie


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Calnago
Posts: 8608
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

I’m going to say that the response from Cannondale is ill informed. They talk about using their longer 109mm spindle (vs the old 104mm I presume), and that that the Campy crank won’t be long enough and it isn’t 30mm. Well, yeah, of course it’s not 30mm and I’m not really sure what they’re talking about when they say it won’t be long enough. But it’s got nothing to do with the Campy install. The cups will ensure it’s located correctly and the length is the same for all Ultratorque applications.
So long as you use the Campy BB30a Ultratorque cups it should fit perfectly. It’s like using Italian cups for the 70mm Italian shell and English cups for the 68mm shell. The cups are made so that the bearings are located in the correct position regardless of the BB shell width. So in the case of the BB30a cups... they are made to accommodate the 73mm shell width of the Cannondale. So long as you can find them, all should be just fine.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

3Pio
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Calnago wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:07 am
I’m going to say that the response from Cannondale is ill informed. They talk about using their longer 109mm spindle (vs the old 104mm I presume), and that that the Campy crank won’t be long enough and it isn’t 30mm. Well, yeah, of course it’s not 30mm and I’m not really sure what they’re talking about when they say it won’t be long enough. But it’s got nothing to do with the Campy install. The cups will ensure it’s located correctly and the length is the same for all Ultratorque applications.
So long as you use the Campy BB30a Ultratorque cups it should fit perfectly. It’s like using Italian cups for the 70mm Italian shell and English cups for the 68mm shell. The cups are made so that the bearings are located in the correct position regardless of the BB shell width. So in the case of the BB30a cups... they are made to accommodate the 73mm shell width of the Cannondale. So long as you can find them, all should be just fine.
Yes.. Same logic.. If Campagnolo offer them (and they are new product available almost everywhere), i guess it should work....

A bit of problem is that no real world experience, so one of the solutions im thinking is to get the Campagnolo groupset except the crankset, and test it first with Campy Record crankset i allready have on my C60..

If it's working to order new Ultra Torque crankset, if not working properly to think about other solutions for crankset that will work in same time with Caad12 and with Campy groupset....

Another dilemma as i said..Dont know how to consider this frameset.. Is it good enough to be my first choice for chasing PR's and similar, or just to treat as winter/slow bike..

So dilemma is Which groupset to get...If i get same or better then i have now (i have Campy Record 11s 2015+, maybe i'll put the old groupset on Caad12, and new on my C60).


Record 12 - Dont like that is heavier then Record 11s, also not interchangable with my Campy i allready have (i have three pair of wheels, which i just pick sometimes based on riding i have)..

Also Expensive cassete which i dont see as upgrade (now im using 12-29 Chorus, and it's perfect for my riding with 52/36 in the front). From the other side more future in term of compatibility in the future...


Record 11 with Chrous cassete (same as i have now..) - Lightweight enough, proven, interchangable with my other bike.....

Chorus 11 or combination Chorus/Record - Lightweight enough, if there is new parts Record will go to C60 i have, old one to CAAD12.. I'll save some money this way, but not sure if it's worth, since biggest save will be on Crankset, and im very satisfied with USB Bearings i have on my Record (20000 km not a single problem)

Potenza 11 - I'll save some money, but will get weight, and not sure if its worth to Centaur 11 Ultra Torque in this moment...

If i get Centaur, i'll definetely save money, since i will treat this way as my secondary Winter, slow bike....But..

So how to treat a new frameset in term of Groupset/Parts? :)

3Pio
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Arrived today..So few pics to share...ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

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3Pio
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

And. first scratch as well (against bad luck)Image

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3Pio
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Ok, let's get back to this thread...

In last few weeks, i tried to decide what parts u'll use for this frameset and finally decided and ordered everything...

I must also mention such a bad support from Cannondale.. A bit arogant, and really claiming things which are ...

I asked official Cannondale that i plan to build this frameset with Campagnolo Groupset, and their reply was:

"Our Cannondale Caad12 uses a 73mm wide bottom bracket shell and requires a longer psindle. We equipped our bikes with a Cannondale Crankset that utilizes a 109mm spindle. We do not think the Campy crankset will work on the Caad12 because Campy does not offer the correct length or 30mm spindle"

even i send a link of Campy BB30A Cups..

Oposite from lacking knowledge of Cannodale support it was very detailed reply from Campagnolo support. (and not just about Cannondale / Campagnolo compatiblity.. I had few other questions, which they answer me promptly and with very nice atttude..Kudos To Buddy Spafford from Campagnolo Support.. I really own him a beer at least... )


Very engineering level of knowledge, very nice attitude.. Campagnolo replied that they worked with Cannondale and they developed BB30A cups, which will work... I mention all this to Cannondale, same attitude and lack of knowledge... Hope the frameset is better build then their support, and i did not got wrong give them my trust with decision on CAAD12...

@Cannondale.. U really need to raise the level of ur support.. In both of knowledge and the attitude...

So i decided to go with:

Groupset: Campagnolo Record except the casssette which will be Chorus 12-29. Also will deide on brakes Record vs Chorus when i build it.. Chorus are Dual pivot, Record D version or Dual pivot front/ Single pivot rear..

Stem: Fizik Cyrano R1 if i need 120 mm, or Kalloy Uno if i need 110mm stem

Wheels: Campagnolo Bora 35 Tub, Bora 50 tub and Shamal clinchers (i'll just share the wheels between bikes)

Saddle: Specialized Romin Evo Pro or Selle Italia SLR Carbonio Flow (but leather removed)

Handlebar: Deda Superleggera 40 cm c-c

Seatpost: Cannondale Save seatpost

Bottle Cages: Bontrager copy of XXX Matte and no Logo

Expected weight of the bike with Bora 35 and with Bottle Cages, Garmin Mount, Favero Pedals: 6770 gm. With Look Keo Blade Ti Pedals 6670 gm

Another dissapoitment with Cannondale.. I realized that there is no Cable stops (groomets) included..

I mention this again to Cannondale support and same attitide.. I expected to apoloize and send them for free but i I got reply "In North America, we do not allow our products to be sold online, unfortunately I do not know too much info for other countries, you may want to double check with our international team" and before that "Yes we sell framesets in North America but we do not sell them online or with grommets.

Being in a different country, depending on who sold you the frame, it may or may not have come with the grommets or cable stops you need.".

I dont understund how they sell the frameset and not including essential parts to be able to install?


They at least provide parts numbers i need: KP224 and K32048 .. The second one probably include what i need, but also parts what i dont need...

After checking with this forum thread: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... p?t=147430 i realiazed that i need KP224, KP193 and KP302 and seem is practice for Cannondale to dont include those parts sometimes (i checked with other member here, he got the groomets with the framesets also bought online.. So seem its a bit lottary about this..)

Good enough that sigmasport.co.uk have good support and they confirmed that that will send them to me. But another problem, they dont have KP193 (still waiting from cannondale), so we agreed to send me in different shipment and in meanwhile to borrow from a friend or buy somewhere else to dont prolong the build....

Another thing that i want to explore while waiting my parts arrive.. Cannondale support mentioned this when i ask about installation of cables (my question was more groomets related but also if there is any hints or any other missing parts...)

"The caad12 runs full housing inside the frame. The housing enters through the downtube and around the bottom bracket and into the chainstay exiting out the chainstay. There are special tools needed to run intenral housing in order to guide the housing or cable through the frame.

https://www.parktool.com/product/intern ... kit-ir-1-2"


So is there something very specific vs other internal routing frames? Can someone help me about routing/cable installation?And for now about routing things trough the frame i used simple Vacum clenaer trick :), no need for special tools..

But let's get back to cable routing on CAAD12..

As i can see (without still not having groomets needed for cable instalation), from the levers i enter the cables in cable housing with ferrules at the end of the housing in the frame (as its practice with almost every mechanical frame today):

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Then from that point cables are inside the frame bare (that's the way how i have on my C60) ? Or i need to put them in some kind of liners or housing?

Then in BB are bare cables enter the cable guide (if cable supposed to be bare and not in some lining/housing)?

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On my C60 in cable guide attached to the BB area, there is small lining/ plastic hose entering trough the guide, and trough that hose cables are routed in that area (in rest part inside the frame just bare cables)

So how is supposed cables to be routed trough cable guide on Caad? Bare or have to find some lining/hose ? Im afraid if i use bare cable that after a while will damage the cable guide from the movement

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And last question regarding Rear Der cable from BB area to the read der. Am i entering the chainstay bare cable or full housing or some liner/hose ?

Since the cable will be under tension i guess bare cable and just housing from the rear der to the rear entrance to the frame and trough the Platic Cable stop (which i still miss) But definetely not sure since i can see that it's possible to put cable housing trough the chainstay....

Is it KP302 for this area?

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And rear brake i guess bare cable as well (no liners no housing).. The missing plastic Cable end here is KP193/Kp224?

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Thanks

3Pio
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Finally, I got all of my parts needed to continue with my builds... So lets continue with my project..

I also changed the name of Subject mentioning Colnago C60 as well, since i'll strip parts from that bike as well, and build it again.. Most of the old parts (Campagnolo Record groupset with about 21000 km), will go to Caad12 frame (after cleaning them since i was riding a lot in Rain, dirty roads in last few weeks), and most of the new parts will go to C60 (Campagnolo Record same groupset as i allready have now).

Kudos for help to @Calnago (thanks a lot for inbox help whenever i needed, and thanks to ur threads where is everything very detailed and helpfull) and @Kervelo (help me with his CAAD12 Campy build to decide to dont go Potenza but something better) . Also big kudos to my LBS (www.outdoor.mk) which let me have Chorus and Record parts in same time, and have a chance to choose which one...


So how i choosed the parts:

I had a dilemma should i go Chorus or Record for few of the parts, so weighting and having them both at same time make me easier to decide:

- Brakes - I have Campagnolo Record 2015+ on my C60, but differential version... While i love front one, rear one is sometimes a bit tough in adjusting and staying that way. So dilemma was should i go again same brakes as i allready have or to go Chorus but Dual Pivot version


So this is what my scale say:


Chorus:

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'
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Record:

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Only 2-3 gm (292-293 gm Record, 295-296 gm Chorus) difference, easier to adjust, and cheaper (twice cheaper), so this one was easy decision: Chorus

3Pio
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Before i continue, i'll remeasure frame, fork and parts connected with frameset...


CAAD12 Frame (including read derailleur hanger and seatpost collar), but no bearings, no headset cup, no bb cups:

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Uncutted Fork:

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Fork after cutting (i did not cut too much, since this bike should be ok for my gf, which she'll ride with about 3 cm spacers under the stem):

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And this is cutted part of the fork:

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Also there is weight of other parts:

Bearings and Headset cup:

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Frame cable grommets: (Those i was missing with the frameset, but Sigmasport.co.uk send them just on time.. Thanks a lot.. Also i'll mention again bad Cannondale support which made some confusion.. Good thing Sigmasport was very nice support, and also Campagnolo (have to mention this again).

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Spacers:

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Fork Expander:

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This year Campagnolo have their own BB Cups for BB30A, so instead of going BB like BBInfinite or Wishbone, i decided to go with Campagnolo:

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3Pio
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

And finally can do some install like Fork and Brakes...


For most of the things where grease was needed im using Morgan Blue Campa (@Calnago suggestion, which i decide to follow based on his knowledge and experience), so this fork installation to frame:


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And one picture of BB Cups installed:

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For BB Cups installation i decided to dont go Loctite way (i bought two BB cups, so if first one is not success, i'll went for second one ussual way Loctite + Activator). So since i measure very well BB tollerance of the frame, i installed using just Morgan Blue Aqua Proof on BB Cups to Frame contant.

Also not using Campagnolo or Park Tool BB Cups press, but cheap one which work very well:

Cyclus Tools Press Spindle Press-Fit SN.90-P + Cyclus Tools Press Ring Set for Campagnolo Ultra-/Power-Torque

Perfect timing of receving my bottle cages (For this build i decided to go from Aliexpress in Black Matte. They look like real Carbon, and light enough):


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Also got a new Handlebar: Deda Superleggera in 40 cm C-C:

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Look like stiff enough (on Fizik Cyrano R1 Stem), but i have other potential problem: Levers cant go high enough, and there is very limited option for lever position. As first i was thinking to put this handlebar on my C60, and Easton EC90SLX3 from C60 to Caad12, but seem that Deda will go to CAAD12. Why? Because CAAD12 is smaller frameset with shorter reach, so bigger chance to ride lower hoods on this frame (which will have longer effective reach) then on C60.. If i like this handlebar enough, i'll just order another one in the future for C60 as well....
Last edited by 3Pio on Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

3Pio
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Today i can say i was lucky and not lucky in same time :)

For today i did not plan to work at all, but have a plan for nice 130 km ride..

But just few moments before i went for a ride there was a snow outside, so we cancel the ride..

Well.. Good chance to continue my build ...

Let's put Colnago C60 on my working stand, and let's strip some of the parts (for now Crankset, Rear Deralieur and Front Deralieur, which are going to Caad12)

Also bike and parts are so dirty that i'll have toAnd brand new Crankset clean everything first (the fee of riding in the rain and bad weather this days):

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I realized the Crankset is so dirty that i'll have to remove the chainrings and try to clean it more detailed..

Also chance to weight everything on old Crankset:


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On Crankset there was no Dilemma at all, so i choosed Record (based on weight, and better bearings.. I have them 20000 km on my C60 and bearings are spinning as brand new. So here no dilemma to go for Chorus).

Here is the brand new crankset which will go to my C60 (still have protective plastic, so that why i guess few grams heavier then old one):

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Let's get back to old Crankset

I know it's not recommended to put back the same bolts, but have no choice.. I have to order chainrings bolts, and have to wait for them at least 15 days.. So i put just a little Loctite 243 (i know is recommended no Loctite at all or maybe 222), but i put just a little ...

And finally i assemble the crankset back..

For BB Cups shell where bearings will interfere im using Morgan Blue Campa grease, also same thing on crankset bearings/spindle:


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I Think i deserved a cup of Espresso:


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3Pio
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Last thing for today, to install and choose Derall Front/Rear..


I must admit that i chosed Record Rear and Front Deral, based just on look. Record just look a bit sexier and almost no weight difference.. I even suspect that Chorus will work a bit stiffer because of alloy plate vs carbon on Record... If there was a big price difference definetely Chorus.. But for both deral not so big price difference to go to Record, so i picked Record as i said based on look




Weight of Record Front and Rear:

This is old one, from my C60:

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This is brand new:

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The weight difference of 1 gm im sure it's coming from the grease i put in jockey's after cleaning of the old one (they were full with sand)

The old front Deral (which goes to Caad12):

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The Brand new (which goes to C60):

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Weight of Chorus Front and Rear:

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I order some Trivio Chain Catcher:

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And finally on the bike:


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Time for some Mozarella and Glass of Wine.. For today it's enough....


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3Pio
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

And first frustration i have with Deda Superleggera Handlebar...

Integrated routing is very bad design..

It's very hard to put the cables in the levers channels without damage to cable, also to have nice and smooth shifting/braking.. After fighting and struggleing for hours i finally installed right side...

And to have big frustration realizing that there is cable rubbing and not going smooth on rear brake because of the sharp tight cable (most like this on the entrance to lever) in combination to brake entrance on the frame.. On my both other bikes the brake entrance to frame is on the left side on the top tube.. So rear brake cable have a chance for round nice cable bend.. On CAAD12, the brake entrance is on the right.. So this make very tight cable and sharp bend.. This problem is more related to Deda Superleggera then to CAAD12, but combination seem to be very hard to make it actually work...

I'll try again (after damaging cable housing), if this is not success i'll just install my Easton EC90SLX3 handlebar here (which i adore more and more...)

In that case i'll try to install Deda on my Colnago C60, but bigger chance to just return it back, and exchange for an Fizik Cyrano R1 Bull.....

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And for just 8 gm of weight savings not worth the hassle with internal routing..Too bad no EC90SLX3 on the market anymor, im very satisfied from everything (stifness, shape) I admit Superleggera look very sexy, but to me seem that they made a design more toward the look, then function...

3Pio
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Easton EC90SLX3 installation was very easy and much more elegant, so one side (rear brake and rear deral cable is done).

Cant understund what is the point of internal routing of handlebar? Is it more elegant? It is not.. Easton have some rectnagle shape to be able to put cables more elegant and not so noticable.. Is it more comfortble? It is not.. On Easton i put the cables in front of handlebar, so this route will be more comfortable then on the back.. Also i can adjust hoods/levers on any angle i need/want vs Deda's


So i'll give it a chance maybe on C60, but im almost 99% sure that im returning this back and exchanging for Fizik...

This is what i done today:

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by Weenie


robertbb
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

Hey 3Pio! Definitely following this thread thanks for the effort! We have very similar taste in our stable of frames and gruppos, tools, stands, pedal PM, wheels.. :)

Would love to see some close-up pics of that chain catcher and your thoughts on how well it works with Campy?

Also, if you are looking for a great bar for Campy levers, I would suggest looking into the Canyon H17 AL (or H18 Carbon - same shape) in black and grey. I've tried a lot of bars, including the popular Deda options among others and honestly these bars have the best interface to Campy levers I could find anywhere. 70mm reach. 128mm drop. Perfect flat transition from hoods to bar. Great shape for small hands to reach brake levers from the hooks. Also they have no loud branding (just some tiny dark grey listing the model, reach, drop and width) and this can easily be removed with acetone. Real weight is around 265g and it's high quality 2014 alloy with a smooth non-grainy finish.

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