CAAD12 Campagnolo Groupset and Colnago C60 Campagnolo builds...

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
3Pio
Posts: 1070
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

I know that there is few similar topics, but i just noticed that Campagnolo offer as new product BB Cups compatible with BB30A.

https://www.coloradocyclist.com/campagn ... orque-cups

Model Number IC19-UT73

So any experience with this cups? Does this mean that if someone want to build CAAD12 (or SuperSixEvo), with Campagnolo not any more needed BB solutions from BBInfinite or Wishbone or similar? Or there is still creaking problems, so even Campagnolo offer now BB30A cups, it's better to go BBInfinite, Wishbone or similar?
Last edited by 3Pio on Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

by Weenie


lirek15
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 8:35 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

by lirek15

I am running a UT crankset on my Caad12 currently.
I bought a wishbone BB30A bb as a solution as the campy cups were not available at the time.
I also bought a pair of campy's own BB30A cups when they came out but never bothered to install them as the wishbone BB has been flawless so far. Great tolerances and I think that having a threaded center piece makes installation and removal a breeze as you don't need a press to install/punch to take out.
The only downside is that the wishbone BB is about 3 times the price of campy's BB.

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Calnago
Posts: 7336
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

That's exactly what it means, with a big caveat. The success or failure from a creaking standpoint always seems to come down to the quality of the install. There's no doubt that a threaded BB shell is very simple from the users viewpoint, and it works, and most everyone can get it installed perfectly and it will remain trouble free for a very long time. But from the manufacturers standpoint, pressfit solutions are here to stay for the most part, despite their inherent drawbacks to the consumer. The production process is a lot simpler if they don't have to build a carbon frame around an alloy threaded BB shell, and thus much cheaper. Plus, it's a marketing boon in the weight wars because the frames can be advertised as weighing less without the BB shell. Of course, you have to add the BB cups, inserts, or complete one piece units afterwards, but that doesn't have to be mentioned in the weight figures of the frame.

But as things stand today, I'm kind of indifferent to and accepting of the pressfit stuff, because if it's installed properly then the cups work just fine. So, to answer your question, if I were to be installing a Campy crank in a BB30a shell, I'd absolutely use the Campy alloy cups as my first choice. In fact, on any shell that there are campy cups for, I will use them as my first and preferred choice. Perhaps I'd use some Loctite 7649 primer and Loctite Retaining Compound 609 during the install, it would depend on how the particular shell specs I was working with looked, and they vary. But in most cases now, on any new frame, I'd just use a little Morgan Blue AquaProof Paste between the shell and the cups, and press them in with a proper press with drifts that fill the cavity of the cups.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

3Pio
Posts: 1070
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

lirek15 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:56 pm
I am running a UT crankset on my Caad12 currently.
I bought a wishbone BB30A bb as a solution as the campy cups were not available at the time.
I also bought a pair of campy's own BB30A cups when they came out but never bothered to install them as the wishbone BB has been flawless so far. Great tolerances and I think that having a threaded center piece makes installation and removal a breeze as you don't need a press to install/punch to take out.
The only downside is that the wishbone BB is about 3 times the price of campy's BB.
Thanks.. For ur reply.. How long u have Wishbone BB?

I noticed that CAAD12 can be perfect geometry for me (as i can see between Colnago 50S i have now and 48S which is on the smaller side for me), and also not expensive and lightweight..

So started to think if can work as a winter bike (which mean rain, not so good weather).. And then i found out BB problems with Cannondale..

So How long u have Wishbone BB? And for removing/installing.. Do u need some special tools, or everything is provided with the purchase of BB?

3Pio
Posts: 1070
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Calnago wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:04 pm
That's exactly what it means, with a big caveat. The success or failure from a creaking standpoint always seems to come down to the quality of the install. There's no doubt that a threaded BB shell is very simple from the users viewpoint, and it works, and most everyone can get it installed perfectly and it will remain trouble free for a very long time. But from the manufacturers standpoint, pressfit solutions are here to stay for the most part, despite their inherent drawbacks to the consumer. The production process is a lot simpler if they don't have to build a carbon frame around an alloy threaded BB shell, and thus much cheaper. Plus, it's a marketing boon in the weight wars because the frames can be advertised as weighing less without the BB shell. Of course, you have to add the BB cups, inserts, or complete one piece units afterwards, but that doesn't have to be mentioned in the weight figures of the frame.

But as things stand today, I'm kind of indifferent to and accepting of the pressfit stuff, because if it's installed properly then the cups work just fine. So, to answer your question, if I were to be installing a Campy crank in a BB30a shell, I'd absolutely use the Campy alloy cups as my first choice. In fact, on any shell that there are campy cups for, I will use them as my first and preferred choice. Perhaps I'd use some Loctite 7649 primer and Loctite Retaining Compound 609 during the install, it would depend on how the particular shell specs I was working with looked, and they vary. But in most cases now, on any new frame, I'd just use a little Morgan Blue AquaProof Paste between the shell and the cups, and press them in with a proper press with drifts that fill the cavity of the cups.
Thanks Calnago.. Very detailed answer as always.. I agree with u that pressfit issues is very often connected to quality of install.. (My LBS used Headset press with improvisation instead of proper drifts for Campagnolo cups, so i guess some deformation was happening to the cups, and creaking sometimes because of that.. I bought proper drifts and press (cheap Cyclo Tools), and i installed new cups on my C60 using just Morgan Blue (as u was suggesting), and voila.. No Creaking, no problems.. And install was just few minutes.. Since then about 5000 km on different weather.. Not a single creak or problem...

But i read aboud CAAD12 and BB30A that is awfull standard and very often creaking happened even proper install.. I start thinking to get one of this frame, just to try something else (Alloy vs Carbon), and because is cheap and lightweight (seem that is similar or even lighter then my C60 frameset). Also geometry seem between my 50S and 48S Colnago, which also want to try.. And purpose should be rain/winter/travel bike, and i know i'll hate if there is BB creaking... Also since owning two other bikes with Campagnolo setup, dont want to switch to something else like SRAM or Shimano.. But yes, probably if i go for this i'll try first Campagnolo Cups...

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Calnago
Posts: 7336
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

I wouldn’t worry too much about the BB. I’ve “fixed” a number of creaky Cannondale BB’s and not a single one has developed any creaks since. I used the word “fixed” but really, it’s all just about the install. And especially if it’s new I wouldn’t let that deter you if it’s the right geometry and you like the bike.
A bigger concern I’d have is whether that’s the right bike for your “winter bike”. Does it have enough clearance for full fenders etc? I’d check stuff like that to make sure. Or maybe you’re not going to put fenders on it? You mention travel and a fully fendered bike is a pain to travel with for sure, and I’ve done it with My touring bike but the fenders come off for packing.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

3Pio
Posts: 1070
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Calnago wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:56 am
I wouldn’t worry too much about the BB. I’ve “fixed” a number of creaky Cannondale BB’s and not a single one has developed any creaks since. I used the word “fixed” but really, it’s all just about the install. And especially if it’s new I wouldn’t let that deter you if it’s the right geometry and you like the bike.
A bigger concern I’d have is whether that’s the right bike for your “winter bike”. Does it have enough clearance for full fenders etc? I’d check stuff like that to make sure. Or maybe you’re not going to put fenders on it? You mention travel and a fully fendered bike is a pain to travel with for sure, and I’ve done it with My touring bike but the fenders come off for packing.
Now Winter duties/travelling/rain/trainer bike is my Pinarello FP3. I must admit that also wondering if replacing this bike with CAAD12 is right decision?

About winter/rain riding i ussually dont use fenders at all (use SKS fenders which are supposed to be able to quick mount/demount them on my Bianchi Pista Sei Giorni (which is my commute bike), and since is my commute bike i use them permanently.. But on my real winter/rain ridings, im using just AssSaver sometimes, or maybe will go SKS route in the future.. So no problems about that i guess

When i say travelling.. Now when i travel with my C60, i dont want to transport outside (roof of my car, or back), im putting inside.. Which take a lot of space of my trunk, and also hate when i need to install/deinstall seatpost.. Pinarello Fp3 is transported on the roof, same will be with CAAD12 if i opt to go that route.. About tires.. I use most of the times 25 tubs, and winter time im on Shamals with 25mm 4Season or in this moment 23mm GP4000.. And dont feel that i need bigger then 25 (even i ride longer rides).. So i guess thats also ok.. More i worry about realizing that CAAD12 is fragile and not so robust, and how more harsh will be commpared to FP3 frame or Carbon frames im used of it... From the other side, i cant see cheaper and lighter frameset with good geometry as caad12....

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Calnago
Posts: 7336
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Well, if you’re not using fenders except for something like an Asssaver or clipons then it’s not that much of a concern. If the BB is your only concern, I wouldn’t worry about it. It can be silenced if it creaks. Will just take a little more diligent install, using a retaining compound and primer, which is recommended a lot these days.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

3Pio
Posts: 1070
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Calnago wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:17 am
Well, if you’re not using fenders except for something like an Asssaver or clipons then it’s not that much of a concern. If the BB is your only concern, I wouldn’t worry about it. It can be silenced if it creaks. Will just take a little more diligent install, using a retaining compound and primer, which is recommended a lot these days.

Thanks Cal.. I just placed an order for a CAAD12 and SAVE Seatpost... Probably will need ur help in build process (decide which parts and maybe install process... Anyway, as soon as i got it (in few days), probably i'll start measuring the weight of the frameset/fork :)

Thanks a lot again

lirek15
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 8:35 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

by lirek15

3Pio wrote:
lirek15 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:56 pm
I am running a UT crankset on my Caad12 currently.
I bought a wishbone BB30A bb as a solution as the campy cups were not available at the time.
I also bought a pair of campy's own BB30A cups when they came out but never bothered to install them as the wishbone BB has been flawless so far. Great tolerances and I think that having a threaded center piece makes installation and removal a breeze as you don't need a press to install/punch to take out.
The only downside is that the wishbone BB is about 3 times the price of campy's BB.
Thanks.. For ur reply.. How long u have Wishbone BB?

I noticed that CAAD12 can be perfect geometry for me (as i can see between Colnago 50S i have now and 48S which is on the smaller side for me), and also not expensive and lightweight..

So started to think if can work as a winter bike (which mean rain, not so good weather).. And then i found out BB problems with Cannondale..

So How long u have Wishbone BB? And for removing/installing.. Do u need some special tools, or everything is provided with the purchase of BB?
I’ve had mine for about 10k km now.
No special tools needed. Same tool as you would use for a campagnolo BSA BB.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

3Pio
Posts: 1070
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

lirek15 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:14 pm
3Pio wrote:
lirek15 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:56 pm
I am running a UT crankset on my Caad12 currently.
I bought a wishbone BB30A bb as a solution as the campy cups were not available at the time.
I also bought a pair of campy's own BB30A cups when they came out but never bothered to install them as the wishbone BB has been flawless so far. Great tolerances and I think that having a threaded center piece makes installation and removal a breeze as you don't need a press to install/punch to take out.
The only downside is that the wishbone BB is about 3 times the price of campy's BB.
Thanks.. For ur reply.. How long u have Wishbone BB?

I noticed that CAAD12 can be perfect geometry for me (as i can see between Colnago 50S i have now and 48S which is on the smaller side for me), and also not expensive and lightweight..

So started to think if can work as a winter bike (which mean rain, not so good weather).. And then i found out BB problems with Cannondale..

So How long u have Wishbone BB? And for removing/installing.. Do u need some special tools, or everything is provided with the purchase of BB?
I’ve had mine for about 10k km now.
No special tools needed. Same tool as you would use for a campagnolo BSA BB.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks.. I tried to find Wishbone BB for Campy Ultra Torque and BB30A, but seem is out of stock on ebay.. Can u please provide me the link where did u bought urs?

Is it BB3025C 68mm for Campy ULTRA TORQUE-BK model?

3Pio
Posts: 1070
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Calnago wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:04 pm

But as things stand today, I'm kind of indifferent to and accepting of the pressfit stuff, because if it's installed properly then the cups work just fine. So, to answer your question, if I were to be installing a Campy crank in a BB30a shell, I'd absolutely use the Campy alloy cups as my first choice. In fact, on any shell that there are campy cups for, I will use them as my first and preferred choice. Perhaps I'd use some Loctite 7649 primer and Loctite Retaining Compound 609 during the install, it would depend on how the particular shell specs I was working with looked, and they vary. But in most cases now, on any new frame, I'd just use a little Morgan Blue AquaProof Paste between the shell and the cups, and press them in with a proper press with drifts that fill the cavity of the cups.

While waiting for the frameset, i tried to find out out Loctite 7649 and 609. I sourced 609 easy and cheap, but seem that 7649 not available easy or cheap. I never used Loctite/Primer on BB, so that why im asking.. Is it absolutely needed to use 7649 primer, or i can use just 609 with detailed cleaning of BB cups and BB area in the frame with some Acetone or Isopropyl Alcohol?

lirek15
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 8:35 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

by lirek15

3Pio wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:25 pm
lirek15 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:14 pm
3Pio wrote:
lirek15 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:56 pm
I am running a UT crankset on my Caad12 currently.
I bought a wishbone BB30A bb as a solution as the campy cups were not available at the time.
I also bought a pair of campy's own BB30A cups when they came out but never bothered to install them as the wishbone BB has been flawless so far. Great tolerances and I think that having a threaded center piece makes installation and removal a breeze as you don't need a press to install/punch to take out.
The only downside is that the wishbone BB is about 3 times the price of campy's BB.
Thanks.. For ur reply.. How long u have Wishbone BB?

I noticed that CAAD12 can be perfect geometry for me (as i can see between Colnago 50S i have now and 48S which is on the smaller side for me), and also not expensive and lightweight..

So started to think if can work as a winter bike (which mean rain, not so good weather).. And then i found out BB problems with Cannondale..

So How long u have Wishbone BB? And for removing/installing.. Do u need some special tools, or everything is provided with the purchase of BB?
I’ve had mine for about 10k km now.
No special tools needed. Same tool as you would use for a campagnolo BSA BB.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks.. I tried to find Wishbone BB for Campy Ultra Torque and BB30A, but seem is out of stock on ebay.. Can u please provide me the link where did u bought urs?

Is it BB3025C 68mm for Campy ULTRA TORQUE-BK model?
I bought them off their site directly. Ebay was also out of stock when i was looking for mine.
Just send them an email from their site contact info. Shipping to Canada took 3 days.

http://www.wishbonetw.com/product-1.php?id=31

joejack951
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Location: Wilmington, DE

by joejack951

3Pio wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:38 am
While waiting for the frameset, i tried to find out out Loctite 7649 and 609. I sourced 609 easy and cheap, but seem that 7649 not available easy or cheap. I never used Loctite/Primer on BB, so that why im asking.. Is it absolutely needed to use 7649 primer, or i can use just 609 with detailed cleaning of BB cups and BB area in the frame with some Acetone or Isopropyl Alcohol?
Loctite 7471 is another option so long as you are not working in extreme cold (<5°C). You don't absolutely need the primer as the gaps should be plenty small but you will get slightly better adhesion to any anodized aluminum in the mix (Campy cups are anodized).

http://www.loctite.co.uk/loctite-4087.h ... 2628534273

by Weenie


User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 7336
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Yeah, the primer is for use with inactive substrates like titanium and carbon. I’ve tried threadlocker on ti bolts before without the primer and it doesn’t work nearly as well as with. In fact on removal it was more of a goo than dried and cured. But really, in your case I’d just use a bit of the AquaProof Paste, which you already have, after cleaning up the surfaces like you mention. Ive been really happy with just using that, and reserve the retaining compound for the “problem” children.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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