For those buying a new machine... disc or rim?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
JLBSLR
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:16 am
Location: Australia

by JLBSLR

The last 2 years i've spent 18,000km on a rim brake bike and this year 18,000km on disc brake. I don't live in a hilly part of the world but ride in crappy winter weather and race crits in summer. The only advantage i can come up with going disc was the fact that I didn't wear a set of carbon rims out this year. Yes i usually just use the same set of wheels. The extra 500gm's of weight, brake rub and hydro cable creaking as put me off disc brake. Maybe it needs another generation but i'm serioulsy considering switching back to rim brake and running two sets of wheels.

by Weenie


3Pio
Posts: 1203
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

JLBSLR wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:57 am
The last 2 years i've spent 18,000km on a rim brake bike and this year 18,000km on disc brake. I don't live in a hilly part of the world but ride in crappy winter weather and race crits in summer. The only advantage i can come up with going disc was the fact that I didn't wear a set of carbon rims out this year. Yes i usually just use the same set of wheels. The extra 500gm's of weight, brake rub and hydro cable creaking as put me off disc brake. Maybe it needs another generation but i'm serioulsy considering switching back to rim brake and running two sets of wheels.
What kind of wheelset u use? Im asking since i cant see any wear at all (even i live in very hilly area) of both of my carbon wheelset (Bora Tubular wheelset) (ok, i have 6000 km per wheelset so maybe not enough), and just barely wear rim on my Alloy Clinchers (Shamal Ultra) (which i ride as my bad weather wheelset) after about 13000 km on them (but far from thinking that i need to replace them. Based on wear for now im sure i'll get 50000 km on them or even much more...).

Another thing about disc brakes..

Here where i ride there are some early adopters to Disc Brakes, and two of them have broken hips as a result of too much braking power in panic situtions..

One of them on Specialized Diverge (there is one steep descent with a bit sand sometimes from the trucks. Group ride, and his wheels skided after applying disc brakes (before entering the sand area, on clean road)... Result= Broken Hip and out of bike for 1 year.

Second i know (Trek Bike) , just few days ago.. Another descent where there is sometimes people hiking as well. He also had to panic stop since there was a people on the road, same situation.. Wheels skided, result=Broken Hip.....

MoPho
Posts: 530
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Location: NorCal/SoCal

by MoPho

3Pio wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:30 am

Another thing about disc brakes..

Here where i ride there are some early adopters to Disc Brakes, and two of them have broken hips as a result of too much braking power in panic situtions..

One of them on Specialized Diverge (there is one steep descent with a bit sand sometimes from the trucks. Group ride, and his wheels skided after applying disc brakes (before entering the sand area, on clean road)... Result= Broken Hip and out of bike for 1 year.

Second i know (Trek Bike) , just few days ago.. Another descent where there is sometimes people hiking as well. He also had to panic stop since there was a people on the road, same situation.. Wheels skided, result=Broken Hip.....


But wait, I thought discs don't have any more power than rim brakes? So how can it be too much power all of the sudden?

And what evidence do you have that those guys wouldn't have crashed had they been riding rim brakes? I've launched myself over the handlebars on a rim brake bike while trying to avoid hitting a jogger who ran out in front of me ( the bike stopped, I didn't, hit him anyway)

3Pio
Posts: 1203
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

MoPho wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:08 am
3Pio wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:30 am

Another thing about disc brakes..

Here where i ride there are some early adopters to Disc Brakes, and two of them have broken hips as a result of too much braking power in panic situtions..

One of them on Specialized Diverge (there is one steep descent with a bit sand sometimes from the trucks. Group ride, and his wheels skided after applying disc brakes (before entering the sand area, on clean road)... Result= Broken Hip and out of bike for 1 year.

Second i know (Trek Bike) , just few days ago.. Another descent where there is sometimes people hiking as well. He also had to panic stop since there was a people on the road, same situation.. Wheels skided, result=Broken Hip.....


But wait, I thought discs don't have any more power than rim brakes? So how can it be too much power all of the sudden?

And what evidence do you have that those guys wouldn't have crashed had they been riding rim brakes? I've launched myself over the handlebars on a rim brake bike while trying to avoid hitting a jogger who ran out in front of me ( the bike stopped, I didn't, hit him anyway)
1. There is maximum needed power for safe and controlled braking.. Rim Brakes offer that and cant feel any more power will do something better.

To sell u disc brakes, sometimes u have brakes with more power that u need for safe and controled stopping, and with less control..

(Something that i can feel on both cars i had: Honda CR-V: Feel not so powerfull braking but very controlled and predictable.. Citroen C3: Feel very powerfull, but not that controlled and predictable.. Few times i locked the tires and ABS has switched on because of this.. Never ever on Honda similar situation...

So take this example and compare it to Rim Brakes vs Discs (even not good example).. Of course.. if Discs make u want actually ride more often, no brainer.. Get the system which will make u actually ride outside (but please dont broke ur hip from wheel skidding or panic stop)

I just checked that there is a thread for similar issue. Wondering why there is not similar thread for rim brakes:

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... kes+locked




2. Both of them switched from Rim Brakes to Disc Brakes.. Both of them commented that never ever had that kind of situation using rim brakes, and even the guy on Diverge commented that brakes were dangerous for use..


Now i'll ask u few questions:

1. Do u ride ur bike on regular basis and how much u ride per year, and in what kind of terrain/weather?

2. Did u ever had a situation with properly adjusted rim brakes, with proper brake pads and using wheelset with proper braking track (Campagnolo Bora for example Diamond 3D or AC3) that u need more power? There was ever dangerous situation not beeing able to brake on time because of lacking braking power of the system?


To answer my second question for my self.. No, never. Even i ride in hilly area, and on different weather (i have MTB with Discs, magura marta sl, so have idea how discs brakes..) never ever feel that need more braking power or better modulation..Never ever dangerous situations not beeing able to brake on time.. So why to ditch mature system, working perfectly, with easy maintence for something much more complicated, heavier and even more dangerous in panic stops? Im about 70 kg, maybe things are different if u are 90kg or 100kg, so dont have experience in that situations.. Maybe discs are needed....

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3627
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

The vast majority of people in that thread laughed off the question because locking up the rear brake is so ridiculously uncommon. Even if you do lock up the rear brake, it's recoverable. The problem isn't the brakes, it's the operators. Rim brakes actually have way more leverage and are pretty easy to lock up too. Disc brakes just make up for the lack of leverage with lbs-force.

The car analogy you describe is also a false dichotomy. My eTap HRD disc brakes have as much stopping power as the tires are capable of withstanding. They also require less hand/finger force. They also have better modulation than any rim-brake combination I've ever tried. My Hope RX4s had even better feel/modulation while they worked...

MoPho
Posts: 530
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Location: NorCal/SoCal

by MoPho

3Pio wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:17 am

First off, you missed the point. Many people against disc brakes always claim that rim brakes are just as good, and that disc doesn't offer more power. Now you're trying to claim that they have too much power. Can't have it both ways

1. There is maximum needed power for safe and controlled braking.. Rim Brakes offer that and cant feel any more power will do something better.
Obviously rim brakes have worked fine for a century, but that doesn't mean there isn't a reason to look for something better. Disc brakes are more powerful in that it takes less effort to achieve the same results. They also provide more consistency, feel, control because there is much less efficiency loss than a cable rim brake (i.e. rim brake the cable stretches, housing compresses, brake arms and mount flex, brake pads compress against a compressible rim, etc.). The tire size and contact patch limits the deceleration "power", but they added confidence you get from them let you control that power better

I just checked that there is a thread for similar issue. Wondering why there is not similar thread for rim brakes:

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... kes+locked

And when you read it most people confirm that they lock up their wheels far less with disc brakes. There is no similar thread for rim brakes because we are all familiar with rim brakes and they are not the new technoogy unlike with disc where you have a bunch of people with little to no experience passing off misinformation such as "disc has too much power so you will lock up your wheels"

2. Both of them switched from Rim Brakes to Disc Brakes.. Both of them commented that never ever had that kind of situation using rim brakes, and even the guy on Diverge commented that brakes were dangerous for use..
I too crashed similarly to your examples (slick damp pavement) shortly after getting my disc bike, first time I had crashed in many years, would have been easy to blame the disc brakes except the two guys on rim brakes behind me went down also.
Those guys you mention crashed because they used their brakes in a ham fisted way, they would have crashed on rim brakes too and it sounds like they are looking for a scapegoat to protect their ego.
1. Do u ride ur bike on regular basis and how much u ride per year, and in what kind of terrain/weather?
Almost every day. Around 8k miles a year (would be more if not for kids). Been riding road disc for two years. Dry California weather, occasionally get caught in a light rain. Rolling hills and mountains with lots of FAST technical descending where I use the brakes hard. Have a 4k ft mountain with 300 turns in my backyard
2. Did u ever had a situation with properly adjusted rim brakes, with proper brake pads and using wheelset with proper braking track (Campagnolo Bora for example Diamond 3D or AC3) that u need more power?
No, and back in the day, there was never a situation when I needed more than downtube shifters, toe clips, 7-speeds, and sure as hell never thought "gee, I really need a light weight plastic bicycle", either. Ignorance is bliss.
There was ever dangerous situation not beeing able to brake on time because of lacking braking power of the system?


Yes. You dont need more brakes until you do. On a group ride, had to make a panic full stop on 50+mph descent, not only was it an ass puckering moment not knowing if I could stop in time, the guy next to me blew his tire off his alloy rim from the heat and crashed. It is not the best idea to put the heat into the rim and tire.
There are other times too, but I didn't go for disc just for those situations where I need to stop in a panic, it's the afformentioned feel, consistancy, and control in the brakes that makes descending more fun for me.

Maybe discs are needed....
Discs are not needed, they are something you want because it will bring you pleasure in the same way other unnecessary stuff such as Di2, aero bits, a 14lbs bike, etc
Last edited by MoPho on Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ome rodriguez
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:16 am

by ome rodriguez

Can’t wait to see the worldtour team bikes 2019.

imunwired
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:52 am

by imunwired

As I count, of the folks who are actually buying a new road bike/frame, I count around 16 DISC to 24 RIM recently purchased / purchasing now so far, not including the “which is better” responses.

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tymon_tm
Posts: 2825
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:35 pm

by tymon_tm

I've spoken with two mates today - one of them is selling his poshy bike, with LWs and stuff, only to get a disc bike. the other one was calling him an idiot :lol: basically, there's no consensus, there's no superior technology, neither there's a realistic chance bike producers will stop offering rim brakes. because if some of them do, it'll steer the rim brake crowd right into the hands of those who have a bit more regard for consumer needs.
kkibbler wrote: WW remembers.

LiquidCooled
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:46 am

by LiquidCooled

I really need to get one of you guys who says their properly set up rim brakes offer the same (or even better!) feel than discs to come over and "fix" my rim brake bike. I've been riding rim brakes since I was 8 on cheap bikes, nice bikes with ultegra and aluminium rims, and super bikes with Dura ace and carbon or alu rims. There are definitely big variations in braking performance and feel amongst those. But none of them come close to the modulation and feel I get on my disc brake bike. Until someone with mad mechanic skillz fixes my rim brake bike, I'll put up with the extra 1 lb, extra 0.5 watt of drag at 40kph, and more complicated annual maintenance of discs. Definitely disc on my next bike.
Last edited by LiquidCooled on Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2017 Giant TCR Advanced Pro 0 Disc
2003 Cannondale R1000 (CAAD7)

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 2752
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

tymon_tm wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:32 pm
I've spoken with two mates today - one of them is selling his poshy bike, with LWs and stuff, only to get a disc bike. the other one was calling him an idiot :lol: basically, there's no consensus, there's no superior technology, neither there's a realistic chance bike producers will stop offering rim brakes. because if some of them do, it'll steer the rim brake crowd right into the hands of those who have a bit more regard for consumer needs.
Haha, i honestly would suspect the guy with the poshy bike, has been struck by the urge for something new.
The "need" for disc brakes all of a sudden, is just an excuse.
It doesn't matter if you buy a bike for 30000 Euro/ dollar or GBP. The urge for something new will hit like a hammer anyway.
Question is why some people have such a difficult time to admit,.. and just say it as it is!?
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 2752
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

Two gains going disc
1. Better modulation, predictable stopping no matter weather.
2. Rims will not get smoked.

Minus
The bleeding and the deassambly due to fluid.

One thing that could solve this is better mechanical calipers, or hydraulic calipers, but wire attenuated.

Subjective: Ride feel and weight.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

bikeboy1tr
Posts: 373
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

wheelsONfire wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:57 pm
Two gains going disc
1. Better modulation, predictable stopping no matter weather.
2. Rims will not get smoked.

Minus
The bleeding and the deassambly due to fluid.

One thing that could solve this is better mechanical calipers, or hydraulic calipers, but wire attenuated.

Subjective: Ride feel and weight.
Ooh did you say wire attenuated, I like the sounds of that. I actually sent a tweet to Sram saying it would be great if you could set up your disc brakes with wireless servo to actuate the caliper. That would take away the messy bussiness of bleeding and ridgid hoses to deal with. Yes I know that is not the here and now but might make me more inclined to run discs on my road bike. And the other thing is as soon as you say, "panic stop" most people are going to put the death grip on that brake lever when there is no way around the obstacle in front of you.
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"-Albert Einstein
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
2014 Norco Threshold Disc Brake
2012 Time RXRS Ulteam Rim Brake
2008 Time VXR Rim Brake
2006 Ridley Crosswind Rim Brake

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3627
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

wheelsONfire wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:57 pm
Two gains going disc
1. Better modulation, predictable stopping no matter weather.
2. Rims will not get smoked.

Minus
The bleeding and the deassambly due to fluid.

One thing that could solve this is better mechanical calipers, or hydraulic calipers, but wire attenuated.

Subjective: Ride feel and weight.
Also wider rim support, different wheel diameter support.

People mention the hassle of switching between disc wheels and realigning calipers... except .25mm shims exist for disc rotors. A one-time solution doesn’t exist for rim-brake bikes with significantly different rim widths... for example 28/28.75mm wide ENVE 5.6s and 21mm wide Ultegra wheels. That’s a little too much differential to make up with a barrel adjuster. Also a bit of a faff with integrated rim-brake designs like on the previous Madone and previous rim-brake Venge.

Enda Marron
Posts: 367
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 6:03 pm
Location: Belfast

by Enda Marron

Right... brass tacks here...
Discs (and I've never used them) are probably "better" - more reliable, better stopping & better longevity for wheels!
BUT...
They are heavier, more complicated, and are overkill!
Industry is pushing them, pros are rejecting them (bar those you are paid to ride thrm)
And they make bikes look s**t

by Weenie


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