For those buying a new machine... disc or rim?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Stitchking
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 7:30 am

by Stitchking

They still make 26"mtb tyres. Dont trip guys, if you want to cling to rim brakes, i dont see them getting phased out of the aftermarket for at least a decade

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KevinM
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:37 am

by KevinM

Haha. Agreed. I wonder if there will come a tipping point where rim brakes are more expensive?

by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
Posts: 2093
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

blutto wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:26 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:48 am
dgasmd wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:29 pm

-tire sizes beyond 22-23

Slap on some 28mm tires (measured 30-31mm) at 60psi and attack a descent way faster / more aggressively than you're used to. Might change your mind. I even have 32mm Pirelli Cinturatos on order...will need to see if they fit the Emonda, and see if that's a step too far.
"Change your mind" ?....interesting if there will be any pause in mind change after viewing the video linked below ( it looks at a series of runs down a long technical downhill in both wet and dry conditions using rim and disc brakes... admittedly not exactly a science-level result / produces a very low N but it does have some fairly unbiased numbers to throw at your "Change your mind" idea...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0hKMgUEku4

Cheers

I wasn’t talking about disc vs rim, so I have no idea why you are throwing that video at me. I’m implying there is a significant increase in cornering grip from going both wide and lower pressure. Doesn’t matter if you do it via tubular, tubeless or tubed clincher either. Very narrow tires have their place when aero trumps comfort and grip, such as pan flat and very smooth tarmac. Wider tires have their place as well.

e: I suppose if you really want to bring disc vs rim into it, wider tires/rims and rim brake calipers don’t get along too well.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

spinwax
Shop Owner
Posts: 977
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:14 pm
Location: USA

by spinwax

I just got a new 2019 Supersix Evo rim to replace my 2018 rim Tarmac (my sixth Tarmac in a row with rim brakes). I do however own two disc bikes; a gravel and commuter that doubles as a winter training bike. I live in a super mountainous area albeit an arid climate with safe decents. I really have no reason for aero or disc unless I was worried my new rim brake bike may be worth less than a comperable disc version in a year or so.

An average Saturday/Sunday ride for me is 3000 meters of climbing or more. I love the way a rim brake bike looks, I prefer weight weenie idea over aero. I don't race any longer so keeping my speed up on the flats really isn't anything that matters to me. As long as it's light and flickable up the hills, reliable and looks great, I'm happy.

Alumen
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:47 pm

by Alumen

I lived in the era that disc brakes also entered into the MTB scene, one of the best upgrades for a MTB ever !

For MTB is its clear, downhill on a muddy trail, disc brakes are delivering.

90% of my rides are on flat roads, hence I don't see the need for disc brakes. But...., people tend to look at the braking part only...

Because: typically rims are wearing after 15k, that is a pretty short lifespan compared with rims of disc brakes. They virtually last for ever. And what about riding those cool deep section carbon wheels in the wet or on long descents ? With disc brakes it is possible.
Want to ride 28mm in the winter for more grip and comfort on slow training rides ? With disc brakes it is possible.

So disc brakes certainly are offering also more benefits then the braking part only, are more flexible (at least on par with rim brakes for rim brake only thinkers). It is the future.

Right, up for a flat sunny autumn ride this afternoon - on my bike with.... rim brakes :)
CAAD 10 2015

Marin
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

Just ordered (another) custom rim brake frame :D

No need for discs on a road bike for me, I ride in the Alps a lot and thus prefer light bikes.

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 2140
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
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by wheelsONfire

Marin wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:24 am
Just ordered (another) custom rim brake frame :D

No need for discs on a road bike for me, I ride in the Alps a lot and thus prefer light bikes.
Marin, what bike did you order?
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO D
Paduano Racing Fidia
Open *UP*
https://opencycle.com/showcase/the-xplo ... eelsonfire

3Pio
Posts: 932
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Alumen wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:13 am
I lived in the era that disc brakes also entered into the MTB scene, one of the best upgrades for a MTB ever !

For MTB is its clear, downhill on a muddy trail, disc brakes are delivering.

90% of my rides are on flat roads, hence I don't see the need for disc brakes. But...., people tend to look at the braking part only...

Because: typically rims are wearing after 15k, that is a pretty short lifespan compared with rims of disc brakes. They virtually last for ever. And what about riding those cool deep section carbon wheels in the wet or on long descents ? With disc brakes it is possible.
Want to ride 28mm in the winter for more grip and comfort on slow training rides ? With disc brakes it is possible.

I have few rim brake wheelset in this moment, and many of them in last 25 years....I never ever wore out rim on 15K, even back in MTB times..

From the wheelset i ride on my Road bike (i ride a lot of climbs, and almost every day)

Shamal Ultra - 13500 km - Cant see any serious wear on rim track even i ride them winter time and on rain rides...

Bora One 35 Diamond3D tubs - 6000 km - Cant see any brake track wear at all

Bora One 50 AC3 Tubs - 6000 km - Cat see any brake track wear at all

"And what about riding those cool deep section carbon wheels in the wet or on long descents ? With disc brakes it is possible."

U should try new Rim Brake Carbon wheelset, and u'll see it's possible either.. I have few rides with heavy rain from top of the near mountain (1000 m descenting), on both my Bora's, and braking perfornances are not so good just few seconds before first braking..After that first bite totaly normal braking (Dry braking better, but wet braking totaly satisfactory) Bora 50 AC3 a bit better performing vs Bora 35 Diamond3D.. But definetely satisfactory braking performance.... And i must add im not good descender....

Also last season i was believing in negative stories of riding carbon tubs in hot weather or rain, i was not using carbon wheelset that often.. This season? Im almost whole season on carbon wheelset (10500 km for now)


p.s. Based on my Garmin Edge 520 elevation which is always lower then Strava on the phone devices, last season i climber 120000m , and this season for now im 105000m (i had a broken wrist, so 2 months off bike), so it's not that i dont ride hills here...And until now, i really did not feel any need for a disc brakes on road bike.. Im sorry that i believe so much negative talks abour carbon wheelset, that i was delaying my purchasing of the first pair.. When i realized it's really working good, i definetely bought second pair...

Marin
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:54 am
Marin, what bike did you order?
It will be called the "trve" and will be branded as "Heretic" like my other personal bikes. It's being built by a small shop in Asia from imported Reynolds tubing, using welded & lugged construction :)

HenHarrier
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:34 am

by HenHarrier

It's telling that some commenters are saying they're not buying rim brake bikes but high end disc bikes specifically with resale value in mind. I'll never have the disposable income to think of a 6 - 10k bike as something I'll use for a year then move on for the next new model I want, but I have to admit it's interesting to read the thoughts of those that can and I wonder if out in the wider cycling world whether such thought processes are part of what's driving what looks increasingly like the demise of the rim brake bike...

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timmerrr
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:09 pm

by timmerrr

So what I see here, from the people who do not like the idea of disc brakes, is problems with
1) weight
2) aero
3) the system (complexity, rubbing ect.)

1) Once technology such as carbon ceramic rotors and carbon calipers come to the market much of the weight will be gone. While disc wheels may weigh slighltly more, that weight is in the hubs and not the rim due to the removal of the brake track. This means these wheels will actually accelerate faster. The moment of inertia of a rotating mass increases the further away from the axis you get.

2) This one is tough for anyone here as unless you have a background in aerodynamics. Removing the front rim caliper and the associated cable is good for aero and it opens up the crown and fork design. But at the loss of what ever the penalty for the caliper and rotor is. The rear is probably a wash as the air is so dirty at that point anyways. Freedom in rim design w/o brake track.

3) This one is tough to fix from an engineering standpoint as long as it remains a hydraulic system. BBW would solve the bleeding issue and compleately remove the wires in a system like etap but then when your battery dies you are really f$#@ked. Rubbing and other noises will be solved by better pad and rotor materials. Self centering calipers are sure to come in the not to distant future.

Right now rim brakes are probably the better and more matured technology but the potential of disc is much higher, they just need the time to mature. I own and have never had any problems with my rim brakes on carbon clinchers. I've done quite a few long decents, aggressive group rides in the rain and a few emergency stops and never had any issues with the braking on carbon clincher. Yes I just purchased a disc bike. I think they look better and the bike I wanted only comes in disc so it wasn't a tough decision.

AJS914
Posts: 2495
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

HenHarrier wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:00 pm
It's telling that some commenters are saying they're not buying rim brake bikes but high end disc bikes specifically with resale value in mind. I'll never have the disposable income to think of a 6 - 10k bike as something I'll use for a year then move on for the next new model I want, but I have to admit it's interesting to read the thoughts of those that can and I wonder if out in the wider cycling world whether such thought processes are part of what's driving what looks increasingly like the demise of the rim brake bike...
I think those types are relatively rare and aren't moving the market.

I also think it is flawed thinking. Depreciation on new bikes is so large that whether it's rim or disc, it really doesn't matter. I've been looking at aero bikes that would retail for $10-13K and they are selling for $4-5K on ebay after 2-3 years.

Does it matter what people think? It seems like the rim brake ship is pulling out of the harbor. The ship hasn't fully sailed yet but we are getting there. You should buy your new rim brake bike now if you want it because in 5 years you'll probably be limited to a Colnago C series (the classic retrogrouch racing bike) or some kind of small builder bike like a Sarto or Parlee who may still offer both rim and disc options.

spinwax
Shop Owner
Posts: 977
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Location: USA

by spinwax

HenHarrier wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:00 pm
It's telling that some commenters are saying they're not buying rim brake bikes but high end disc bikes specifically with resale value in mind. I'll never have the disposable income to think of a 6 - 10k bike as something I'll use for a year then move on for the next new model I want, but I have to admit it's interesting to read the thoughts of those that can and I wonder if out in the wider cycling world whether such thought processes are part of what's driving what looks increasingly like the demise of the rim brake bike...

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Disc brake technology is moving fast enough that if you buy a disc bike today, resale will probably take a big hit anyways because in a year from now there will be numerous new disc standards (mounting, caliper design, rotor size etc). Who is going to want old disc brake technology, right?

You definitely can't look at a bike as an investment. Heck with rim brakes "going away" like the majority of the industry states is going to happen; high end rim bikes may hold their value slightly better as they will be limited out on the open market. Well at least I like to believe that. :lol:

I will admit, I am one of those people that get a new bike every year and many times multiple bikes a year. It's a passion and fun for me but I definitely don't go in to the decision of buying a new bike wishing and hoping that resale will be good in a year or two.

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tymon_tm
Posts: 2632
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:35 pm

by tymon_tm

first of all, I'm yet to meet a person who has paid a full MSRP for a racing bike. second, those things lose value faster than the universe expands. selling for half the price after a season or two of very mild usage is a great success. you're far better off riding the hell out of your bike as you'll probably get paid a lot closer to it's current value, than getting rid of it after a season when it's still 'like new'. third, I also haven't heard anyone saying "I'll get this bike instead of that, because I'll resale it better" - these are not cars you lease for 3 years or real estate you buy as investments. so this whole "I'm getting discs because no one will buy my used rim bike" sounds like a cheesy justification of a bad decision :beerchug:
kkibbler wrote: WW remembers.

by Weenie


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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

timmerrr wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:06 pm
So what I see here, from the people who do not like the idea of disc brakes, is problems with
1) weight
2) aero
3) the system (complexity, rubbing ect.)

1) Once technology such as carbon ceramic rotors and carbon calipers come to the market much of the weight will be gone. While disc wheels may weigh slighltly more, that weight is in the hubs and not the rim due to the removal of the brake track. This means these wheels will actually accelerate faster. The moment of inertia of a rotating mass increases the further away from the axis you get.

2) This one is tough for anyone here as unless you have a background in aerodynamics. Removing the front rim caliper and the associated cable is good for aero and it opens up the crown and fork design. But at the loss of what ever the penalty for the caliper and rotor is. The rear is probably a wash as the air is so dirty at that point anyways. Freedom in rim design w/o brake track.

3) This one is tough to fix from an engineering standpoint as long as it remains a hydraulic system. BBW would solve the bleeding issue and compleately remove the wires in a system like etap but then when your battery dies you are really f$#@ked. Rubbing and other noises will be solved by better pad and rotor materials. Self centering calipers are sure to come in the not to distant future.

Right now rim brakes are probably the better and more matured technology but the potential of disc is much higher, they just need the time to mature. I own and have never had any problems with my rim brakes on carbon clinchers. I've done quite a few long decents, aggressive group rides in the rain and a few emergency stops and never had any issues with the braking on carbon clincher. Yes I just purchased a disc bike. I think they look better and the bike I wanted only comes in disc so it wasn't a tough decision.

Carbon rotors have been made in all sorts of versions (be it ceramic coating etc).
There is a reason why they haven't been made by the 3 huge though!
Why would disc brake calipers all of a sudden drop drastical in weight just because it's for a road bike?

Look at XTR calipers, they're made all through to be super light, not to be the most durable.
If people justify a purchase believing that will happen soon, i feel sorry for them.

Aero could not be as light and still as durable as a none aero bike.
The shapes need more material and wall thickness can only be so thin.
You'd need new composites advancement for that.
Perhaps graphene, but it is very very expensive.

Same with pads rubbing. Do you really think that the mtb community of racers are not as picky as the road segment riders?
Again, all this when people are saying; i guess, in a few years bla bla bla.
Things should be based on what you have available and in full working order.

None should make a decision based on fantasies, or what the next guy says "i've heard".
You got to look are what is available now. The rest is not existing here and now.

Nobody can say that it's not a big bonus that you brake on a steel rotor instead of the rims.
That's the big plus when it comes to disc brakes.
Braking is better, yes it is. Do you need disc brakes, well, that's up to each and everyone to decide.

But a rim brake bike, none aero (rather a light weight design) frame will always be lighter.

I've heard people talk of light bikes and more heavy.
Add a bottle of water, or two or three to your light bike and you feel the difference compared to a more heavy.
It's not true. A light weight frame and wheels makes a difference to a more heavy dito.
A light weight frame is more snappy, there is no way around that.
I know because i have had more heavy bikes and i also have a Vial EVO i can ride.
It's below 5800 grams. If i use more heavy wheels and components, i can still feel that Vial EVO is lighter.
The frame itself matters if you talk ride feel and handling.

People bounce between all sorts of excuses to justify a new bike.
Recently it was super light weight bikes. A few years later it's aero and now aero with disc brakes.
Why not just accept the fact, they come with more weight.

Look at where the braking occurs on front wheel with discs compared to rim.
There is more stress at the fork and lower bearing. Probably HT, DT and TT (last) top tube junction.
At the rear wheel it's the left chainstay( i guess BBRight finally have a win here).
My guess is that two exact bikes, part from disc or rim and wheels, will feel different.
Does it matter?
I don't know, if the bike is a super light build, i guess you will notice.
A thin wall bike has a different feeling all through compared to a more robust/ heavy bike.

It's alot to take into account if you really are picky with how the bike feels and reacts.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO D
Paduano Racing Fidia
Open *UP*
https://opencycle.com/showcase/the-xplo ... eelsonfire

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