New Continental 5000S Tires - Tubeless Compatible

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

Moderator: robbosmans

Forum rules
The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.

If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

zefs wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:38 pm
Maybe the reason is that it's the most sold tire so it's obvious more people will be reporting issues compared to other tires that in some shops are not even available for purchase. I don't see a reason why the Continental tires would be more prone to sidewall punctures compared to other tires of the same category and price. Also people using it as a winter tire which it never was, more like all round one.

If you notice GP4K sidewalls, although they are black, the protective rubber coating over the nylon threads is minimal. Maybe that 3x110tpi construction method isn’t the greatest either.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



User avatar
Dan Gerous
Posts: 2413
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:28 pm

by Dan Gerous

Marin wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:49 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:35 am
They used 50mL
I also thought that was excessive. Let's wait for Jarno's test, but I don't think it'll get that much faster.
Yeah 50ml is a lot, even more so given the 5000TL are fully sealed tubeless tires, not tubeless ready that require sealant to keep air in. They're super heavy to begin with, then adding 50gr of sealant? :shock: On the other hand, if you only use 20ml in tubeless ready tires, it's not going to protect for long before you need to add more but it's probably enough in these.

But testing everything only at 90psi also needs to be extrapolated for real world use IMO, I prefer rollingresistance.com tests at various pressures to give you a better idea of how tires compare in the real world. While most decent 25mm clinchers with tubes usually feel pretty good at around 90psi, my experience with tubeless tires is that they feel like rocks unless you go much lower, probably because they usually have stiffer casings/sidewalls to begin with as is the case with the GP5000TL and Mavic Yksion UST I have now. So while tubeless is faster at the same pressure in theory, in the real world, I find you need to compare them at pressures a good 20-25% lower than clinchers for a similar feel/grip and then they're not faster by much, if at all... They might start to have an advantage if you live somewhere the road surfaces are very rough... or if you flat a lot obviously... but I think rolling resistance is not a good reason to go tubeless.

Personally I'm going back to tubes as I don't flat very often... so less trouble/maintenance and lower cost (even more true comparing the mileage you get out of a Grand Prix vs Schwalbe Pro One or Mavic Yksion UST)... and I never had issues or noticed people around me having issues with GP4000sII sidewalls, different roads than those who do have issues I guess, but I have ridden them in gravel and off-road more than just a few times, I'll give the GP5000 a try but the tubed ones. I've had Vittoria sidewalls splitting and Mavics, although the UST are much better than past Mavic tires, they still get sliced quite easily, and I've seen a few slices too long for sealant to save them...

But tires, while not as much as saddles, seems to be a very personal thing.

Bigger Gear
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:58 pm
Location: Wet coast, Canada

by Bigger Gear

1415chris wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:31 pm
Good one!
Individual experience doesn't meter in the big scale of data and statisctics.
But you know what? I don't need a data and statisctics to make my mind about tyres I rode/ride.
On the subject of conti sidewall cuts do your research and you will find out that this is commonly reported issue. And in fact it has been reported for many years, from GP4k and through its version II. One can add the issue with the falling apart threads as well.
Again this won't really help in the grand scheme of statistics, but here's my experience since the original GP4000 came out. Was that in 2006? I can't even remember, but for argument's sake let's take the last 10 years. On average I have ridden around 18K km per year in that time. In the winter I use more robust tires, so let's put the spring/summer/autumn usage at an average of 15K km per year. Over that time I've used a mix of tires, but primarily Conti GP4000S/4000Sii or Vittoria Open CX/Corsa G+. Maybe a few Vredstein in there as one of my last racing seasons my team had a Vred deal (ugh). So in the past 10 years, I can say without a doubt that I have cut at least 5 Conti sidewalls bad enough to require booting. Probably more, but certainly not up to 10 or one per season. In that same time, I have never destroyed a Vittoria sidewall. In addition, I can think of at least 3 sidewall failures for one of my best friends who I ride with a lot. Again, not randomized or statistically significant from a stats/math standpoint.

In fact, the only other tire I can remember destroying a sidewall on was a Michelin Pro Race 2, way way back in about 2004. I remember because it was in a race and I started to notice a weird thump from the front end of my bike. I suspected the tire, and about 10 km later the tube blew through the sidewall and exploded. It was an early season training race, and as I had suspected it I had already moved myself to the back of the pack so I would not be a hazard.

But I stand by statement that if you ride in an area where there is a decent of amount of gravel sized random debris on the road, you are much more likely to suffer a sidewall slice on a Conti than other tires. But here's the rub. If you ride a Vittoria Corsa G+, you are much more likely to suffer a sharps puncture than on Continental. And there in lies the conundrum and why I keep riding Conti tires partly. I will have a bad run of punctures on Vittoria, go back to Conti until I slice a tire, then back to Vittoria and so on. If you think this is bad you should see me with saddle swaps :D

EDIT: Sorry for the thread drifting here, I know this convo is more about the GP5000 but I still think it is relevant as I doubt the sidewalls are magically better.

AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I used to get a lot of cut sidewalls on the GP3000 but I just haven't seen it on the GP4000. I've been riding in the pacific NW for the last three years and this year in NM. We have tons of gravel on the road at intersections. They never sweep the streets here. In any case, I've had one flat in two years and it was a pinch flat from hitting a pothole on a group ride. Maybe I'm just lucky or I'm good at avoiding things in the road but I'll keep on using GPs and will switch the 5000 next time I need tires. I'm still on the fence on whether to try road tubeless. As I hardly ever get flats, I'm not sure it's worth the trouble.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Dan Gerous wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:26 pm

Yeah 50ml is a lot, even more so given the 5000TL are fully sealed tubeless tires, not tubeless ready that require sealant to keep air in. They're super heavy to begin with, then adding 50gr of sealant? :shock: On the other hand, if you only use 20ml in tubeless ready tires, it's not going to protect for long before you need to add more but it's probably enough in these.

The GP5K TL require sealant.

User avatar
Dan Gerous
Posts: 2413
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:28 pm

by Dan Gerous

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:56 pm
Dan Gerous wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:26 pm

Yeah 50ml is a lot, even more so given the 5000TL are fully sealed tubeless tires, not tubeless ready that require sealant to keep air in. They're super heavy to begin with, then adding 50gr of sealant? :shock: On the other hand, if you only use 20ml in tubeless ready tires, it's not going to protect for long before you need to add more but it's probably enough in these.

The GP5K TL require sealant.
Do they or it's just a recommendation? It makes sense to use some to prevent punctures but I'm not sure what's the point of adding the butyl liner inside and it's added 40-50 grams of weight per tire compared to other tubeless road tires if they still require sealant... or as much sealant.

My thinking of using less sealant in these is that the butyl liner 'should' be already air-proof so the initial mount wont use half the sealant you put in to get into the casing to make it air-tight like with tubeless ready tires... and maybe it will keep the sealant from drying as fast as in tubeless ready tires? Anyway, it seems like a weird decision from Continental if you ask me for such a tire, would make more sense to have that butyl liner if they made a tubeless Gator or GP 4-Season than for their lighter faster tire.

AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Isn't a GP5000TL + sealant about equal in weight to a GP5000 + tube? I don't see why one would want to go tubeless without sealant. The primary benefit to me is not getting a flat.

User avatar
Dan Gerous
Posts: 2413
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:28 pm

by Dan Gerous

AJS914 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:09 pm
Isn't a GP5000TL + sealant about equal in weight to a GP5000 + tube? I don't see why one would want to go tubeless without sealant. The primary benefit to me is not getting a flat.
Comparable weights if you use very little sealant and use cheap heavy tubes. GP5000TL around 300gr + the norm is about 30gr of sealant. GP5000 around 220gr so still a tad lighter with heavy 100gr tubes.

I agree, flat protection is the point of tubeless, much more than weight and rolling resistence... but as people use sealant in the more normal 250-260gr tubeless ready tires and get the same flat protection, I don't think the GP5000TL is very enticing... unless it rides like a magic flying carpet and much faster than anything else. Okay the GP5000TL should last twice as long as a Schwalbe Pro One but still.

petromyzon
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm

by petromyzon

Personal experience is important for me when I choose tyres, I'm just aware that it can be very flawed. Posting on here that you've had two events clustered in one type of tyre and that therefore makes things "clear" is just not realistic. I'm the same with grip - any unexpected slips when out riding and I lose confidence in the tyre choice, even if it happened once.

To be clear, I've not bought a GP4000 for at least 5 years - I prefer non-vulcanised tyres for whatever reason. When I last had one I agree that the sidewalls felt unusually fragile, but that the tread was atypically thick. Playing Devil's advocate - what if the overall rate of sidewall cuts with GP4000s was similar to that for other tyres, but that the rate of tread punctures was lower due to lots of rubber and Vectran? This might make it seem like sidewall cuts were more common, when really they just made up a greater fraction of GP4000s failures.

I suspect (but I'm not an industry professional with any specific insight) that the rubber compound is the dominant source of energy loss in a tyre. If you vulcanise the whole lot together you had better make the sidewalls very thin otherwise they will hold a lot of rubber and cost you a lot of speed. If it's just fabric (cotton, Kevlar, Silk, whatever) then there is more leeway to have a thicker sidewall.

The person who asked about roller testing's validity got shut down rapidly perhaps because people are annoyed with persistent assertions that such testing is invalid. What is more worrying to me is that tests for grip and puncture resistance are probably significantly less useful. Given that these three aspects of performance are to some extent a tradeoff it is possible that Conti would be able to drive sales by creating a less grippy or durable tyre that tests better on the rollers without the consumer knowing what they have done.

However, if the other attributes of the GP4000 have not changed Conti may have created a tyre that is as aero, grippy, long lasting and puncture resistant as that tyre but is as fast rolling as time trial only rubber from a few years ago. If this is true they deserve to sell in the millions.

I was a bit disappointed about some of the design choices in the tubeless version but perhaps there are other benefits of the butyl layer.... eg. sealing ability and sealant longevity.

"Tubeless ready" GPTT- 5000 anyone?

dastott
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:35 pm

by dastott

Going to go back to Conti after 'upgrading' from GP4000s II to Michelin Power Competition. I like them but the Power Comps are so hard to fit on some rims (Farsports) and I have had a couple of punctures lately. While not the easiest tyre to mount, the GP4000s II was easier than the Power Comps for me. Hope the 5000 is not too tight either. Not much fun trying to force the tyre on the rim with cold hands during winter...

User avatar
pdlpsher1
Posts: 4016
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

dastott wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:39 am
Going to go back to Conti after 'upgrading' from GP4000s II to Michelin Power Competition. I like them but the Power Comps are so hard to fit on some rims (Farsports) and I have had a couple of punctures lately. While not the easiest tyre to mount, the GP4000s II was easier than the Power Comps for me. Hope the 5000 is not too tight either. Not much fun trying to force the tyre on the rim with cold hands during winter...
Ease of tire mounting should be largely a function of the rim, as in how deep of a center channel for the beads to 'fall in' and thus reduce the effective diameter of the tire's bead. With my Bora wheels I can easily mount a Conti 4k by hand without tire levers.

User avatar
pdlpsher1
Posts: 4016
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

petromyzon wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:28 pm
what if the overall rate of sidewall cuts with GP4000s was similar to that for other tyres, but that the rate of tread punctures was lower due to lots of rubber and Vectran? This might make it seem like sidewall cuts were more common, when really they just made up a greater fraction of GP4000s failures.
A very interesting theory and I think you are onto something. Also to expand on your point. The Contis have literally double the tread life of other fast 'racing/training' tires. So the chance of a sidewall getting cut is automatically doubled since a Conti tire will be in service for twice as many miles as other tires. So it may seem to some that they go through a 'ton' of other tires without getting a cut, they will feel the same thing if they throw away a Conti when it's only half worn. Then they will go through a 'ton' of Contis without seeing that many cuts.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

All my sidewall cuts were well within life expectancy of the tread, making it a non-factor. 200 miles, 500 miles, etc.

dastott
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:35 pm

by dastott

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:09 am
dastott wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:39 am
Going to go back to Conti after 'upgrading' from GP4000s II to Michelin Power Competition. I like them but the Power Comps are so hard to fit on some rims (Farsports) and I have had a couple of punctures lately. While not the easiest tyre to mount, the GP4000s II was easier than the Power Comps for me. Hope the 5000 is not too tight either. Not much fun trying to force the tyre on the rim with cold hands during winter...
Ease of tire mounting should be largely a function of the rim, as in how deep of a center channel for the beads to 'fall in' and thus reduce the effective diameter of the tire's bead. With my Bora wheels I can easily mount a Conti 4k by hand without tire levers.
I hear you. I can mount the Power Comps easily enough on Mavic wheels, and I can mount other tyres on the Farsports wheels without tools either. That combo of Power Comps and Farsports is really tough though.

jfranci3
Posts: 1572
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:21 pm

by jfranci3

50ml of sealant is 100% reasonable. The real crime was not having a normal tube or 25mm tire like any normal bike would have.

Giving up a 1.2w of resistance per pair on a bike roller vs a latex bike tube is no big deal. Saving ~3w per pair over a GP4k is a big deal.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Post Reply