Odds that we see disc brake only bikes go back to having rim offerings?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
c60rider
Posts: 361
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm

by c60rider

RussellS wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:49 pm
Your question was wether the top disc brake only bikes will have rim brake offereings. For some reason some of the commentors are talking about rim brakes becoming extinct and the sales ratio of disc and rim brake bikes overall. That is irrelevant. Specialized, BMC, Cervelo, Cannondale all have their top aero bikes as disc and electronic only. Trek chose for the moment to offer both disc, rim, mechanical, and electronic for their top aero bike. I would not be surprised if Trek abandons that in a few years. For the top aero bikes from all of these makers, its $10,000 give or take a few thousand. So cost is immaterial. The people buying these bikes want the best bike. That is electronic and disc and aero. No one with a brain will even try to argue that mechanical shifters shift as well as electronic. No one with a brain will even try to argue that disc brakes do not brake better than rim brakes. Before you even throw in carbon rims. And no one with a brain will try to argue that an aero bike is not the fastest. If you are spending $10,000+, you want the best. Aero, electronic, disc. No reason for bike companies to offer half arse best bikes at this level. So the top end disc only bikes will stay as disc and electronic only.
A mechanical shifter set up correctly will be just as precise as an electric so I'm not sure how that means an electric shifts better. If your mechanical isn't shifting perfectly it isn't set up correctly.

alcatraz
Posts: 1298
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

If the market craves rim brakes you can be sure there will be someone to offer it.

If the big brands don't want you as a customer there will be new brands that do. Lets not pretend either that the big brands don't have flaws. Just check some frames cut up on youtube. A large portion of the added money goes into marketing.

No need to attach oneself to a brand giving you less options.

If disc brake bikes are winning over rim brake bikes in TT, flats, climbs, then that would be the beginning of the end.

Interestingly the rim brake pad development has really sped up this last year or two. I detect a change in opinion about carbon rim braking. Maybe they won't give up without a fight? Chinese carbon rims are almost all high temperature resin now and I saw few weeks ago there are new textured brake tracks coming out that would solve a lot of the wet braking performance issues.

I myself am looking forward to the drop in prices for high end rim brakes that are too expensive now. I'll buy them :D

by Weenie


Wookski
Posts: 851
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:51 am

by Wookski

tymon_tm wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:53 pm
RussellS wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:49 pm
cost is immaterial
to whome? do you think only zillionaires buy top end bikes? BTW rich people bargain like crazy, actually many view them as the worst customers...

I just ordered a new SLR with mech and obviously rim brakes. and I am selling my current ride to make up for the heavy price tag. perhaps if money was no object I'd go electronic - but since it doesn't change anything regarding my riding (been there, tried that) I see no point in paying extra just cause "it befits". same with discs - a stupid downgrade for most users, yet praised like a gospel. IMHO people lose their ability to tell what a given product is really worth to them, they just follow every novelty like sheep
Why bother starting this thread if all you’re going to do is rant about the stupidity of consumers?

robertbb
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

alcatraz wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:57 am
If the market craves rim brakes you can be sure there will be someone to offer it.

If the big brands don't want you as a customer there will be new brands that do. Lets not pretend either that the big brands don't have flaws. Just check some frames cut up on youtube. A large portion of the added money goes into marketing.

No need to attach oneself to a brand giving you less options.

If disc brake bikes are winning over rim brake bikes in TT, flats, climbs, then that would be the beginning of the end.

Interestingly the rim brake pad development has really sped up this last year or two. I detect a change in opinion about carbon rim braking. Maybe they won't give up without a fight? Chinese carbon rims are almost all high temperature resin now and I saw few weeks ago there are new textured brake tracks coming out that would solve a lot of the wet braking performance issues.

I myself am looking forward to the drop in prices for high end rim brakes that are too expensive now. I'll buy them :D
Which pads are you referring to? How do they compare to Campy red pads?
It's ALL about the bike.

RobertBB's CyclePlanner Spreadsheet:
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... 8&t=152263

alcatraz
Posts: 1298
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

robertbb wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:01 am
Which pads are you referring to? How do they compare to Campy red pads?
Bbb carbstop. Don't know how they compare to campy red. Only that my 100kg friend now for the first time needs to hold back a bit not to lock his wheels in the rain. We often do steep climbing, but I'm not sure what kind of grades he was on. I imagine the end result is a combination of brake calipers, brake track surface and pads. If you don't have a textured braketrack you will not get the same bite. Take a look at the new surface now being developed for 2019 chinese rims. Supposed to be very effective and ultralight rims include a 410gr 50mm carbon clincher offering, with amazing stopping power. I'm going to upgrade to that someday.

Anyway, we used to be scared of carbon brake tracks/carbon clinchers. He was planning to buy a disc brake madone. He changed his mind and got a 1200gr wheelset for his Trek Domane/sram red group.

He wore out the carbstops and is now running swisstop black prince. Braking is ok he said. He doesn't worry about it. He's putting the braking to the test too touring south China right now. 700km in 6 stages, several thousand meters of climbing included. I'd be riding with him if I hadn't caught pneumonia.

I'm lighter than him at 65kg so I don't need the same stopping power. I reckon I'd be happy with cheaper shimano r55c4 carbon pads for racing and he'd like to continue using carbstop.

On sunny days which is 99% where we live, I'm fine on cork pads. I got a box full of them. Fine for training.
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Saussiecycling
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:25 am

by Saussiecycling

RedbullFiXX wrote:
Saussiecycling wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:55 am
When manufacturers design a QR system that allows quick wheel changes without discs rubbing the days of rim brakes will probably be numbered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
QR Front wheel swap, close to TA, provided the right tool is used
TA Rear wheel changes may still require a bit more finesse though

None of that matters to 99.99% of us

F1 Teams change 4 wheels in less than 3s
This isn't rocket surgery
Speed isn’t an issue.. the problem is the limited clearance between the pad and disc. Atm it’s very fiddly to get 2 wheels to line up straight inside the same caliper. I doubt pros want to have their front wheel rubbing halfway through a stage.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mattr
Posts: 3831
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

Saussiecycling wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:19 am
Speed isn’t an issue.. the problem is the limited clearance between the pad and disc. Atm it’s very fiddly to get 2 wheels to line up straight inside the same caliper. I doubt pros want to have their front wheel rubbing halfway through a stage.
Mechanics need sacking then. It's pretty easy to get every single disc and caliper on an entire teams worth of bikes in the same place wrt the drop out face. Just need a couple of very very simple fixtures (front/rear) for the wheels, same again for the frames and a bag of shims.

I mean, they manage ok with cassettes, why would discs be any different?

mattr
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Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

youngs_modulus wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:15 am
Why do you say that? Nothing of the sort happened with mountain bikes when they adopted disc brakes. Why are you anticipating these "studies?"
You're comparing apples and frisbees here. The benefits of discs for MTBs and MTBers are clear and fairly easy to quantify. The benefits on road seem to be more about opinion, feeling, badly set up rim brakes and a small dusting of well marketed "better performance".
(Yes, i've ridden several sets of road discs and been left distinctly underwhelmed. For the money, i'd expect night and day performance and modulation improvement over 10 year old D-A, next training bike will have them, as my rims will last indefinitely, my next CX bike will probably have them, as almost all our races here tend to be mudfests.)

Karvalo
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

RussellS wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:49 pm
Your question was wether the top disc brake only bikes will have rim brake offereings. For some reason some of the commentors are talking about rim brakes becoming extinct and the sales ratio of disc and rim brake bikes overall. That is irrelevant. Specialized, BMC, Cervelo, Cannondale all have their top aero bikes as disc and electronic only.
That's incorrect, Cannondale and Cervelo are compatible with mechanical routing, and have mechanical off the shelf bikes available (The SystemSix actually has more mechanical retail builds available than electronic, 3 to 2).

The knock on effect on cost is that the entry build SystemSix is a little over half the price of the entry build Venge. £3500 vs £6250. The entry build S5 is pricier, but still quite a way short of electronic money, and way below the $10k barrier.

youngs_modulus
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Location: Portland, OR USA

by youngs_modulus

mattr wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:39 am
youngs_modulus wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:15 am
Why do you say that? Nothing of the sort happened with mountain bikes when they adopted disc brakes. Why are you anticipating these "studies?"
You're comparing apples and frisbees here. The benefits of discs for MTBs and MTBers are clear and fairly easy to quantify. The benefits on road seem to be more about opinion, feeling, badly set up rim brakes and a small dusting of well marketed "better performance".
(Yes, i've ridden several sets of road discs and been left distinctly underwhelmed. For the money, i'd expect night and day performance and modulation improvement over 10 year old D-A, next training bike will have them, as my rims will last indefinitely, my next CX bike will probably have them, as almost all our races here tend to be mudfests.)
I’m asking what “studies” Northwestern is anticipating and why he thinks those “studies” will appear for road bikes when they didn’t for mountain bikes or cyclocross bikes.

I suspect Northwestern’s comment had more to do with self-congratulation on seeing through “marketing” and “experts” who have “education” (i.e., those who whould conduct the anticipated studies) than with any actual anticipated revelations that somehow all industry engineers have missed. I await his/her response...maybe Northwestern will surprise me.

I remember when disc brakes were new in cyclocross, circa 2013. People were flipping out, saying that the pads don’t last through an entire muddy race and that cantilevers would win in the end. But look at CX fields now—somehow, people are able to finish races and even win them with disc brakes.

My question to Northwestern is: your gimlet-eyed suspicion of road bikes with disc brakes sounds a lot like the gimlet-eyed suspicion I witnessed at the advent of disc brakes for mountain bikes and for cyclocross bikes. What are these “studies” you’re so sagely anticipating and why do you think they’ll appear for road bikes when they didn’t for mountain or cyclocross bikes?

Mattr, I respect many of the opinions you’ve expressed previously, so please don’t doubt the earnestness of my question:

You say the benefits of discs for mountain bikes are easy to quantify. How does one quantify those benefits, and what is it about those methods that makes them invalid for road bikes?

I don’t care what brakes anyone else rides. I’m sure people will love rim-brake bikes for decades to come just as they’ve adored lugged steel bikes with friction shifting decades after the market considered them outdated. To each his own. The road bike market is clearly going towards discs regardless of what any of us thinks. There’s no harm in saying “I prefer rim brakes,” or in asking whether rim brakes will continue to be an option on new bikes.

But Northwestern seems to be suggesting that the shift to rim brakes is a cynical marketing conspiracy soon to be reversed in the name of...well, I’m not sure what. Yet that theory isn’t borne out by history and it doesn’t make a lot of sense on its own terms. It’s an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I’m all ears.

AW84
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:04 am

by AW84

The cycling industry is strongarming us all to satisfy its own motives, and there's likely zero chance it's going back. It desparately wants/needs you to buy a new bicycle, and it doesn't want to shoulder the costs of making two different types of frames. Bike shop showrooms are comprised almost entirely of disc bikes these days, pushing the message to newbies and vets alike that you have to have this, or that there is no other option. Given that the top of the line aero bikes have been strategically built as disc-only and rim bikes are, sadly, gradually (or in some cases not gradually) being phased out across the board, the writing is on the wall....whether we like it or not.

Karvalo
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

youngs_modulus wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:41 pm
I’m asking what “studies” Northwestern is anticipating and why he thinks those “studies” will appear for road bikes when they didn’t for mountain bikes or cyclocross bikes.

I suspect Northwestern’s comment had more to do with self-congratulation on seeing through “marketing” and “experts” who have “education” (i.e., those who whould conduct the anticipated studies) than with any actual anticipated revelations that somehow all industry engineers have missed. I await his/her response...maybe Northwestern will surprise me.
To be fair, have you ever seen the kind of industry Whitepaper that it has become de rigeur to release along with a new aero-bike, written and released alongside a new CX or MTB? I don't remember ever seeing one, even though available frame design variables are arguably far more important to the performance and handling of a full-suss MTB than they ever will be to a UCI legal road race bike with even remotely conventional geometry.

So in that sense, if the next gen of aero road bikes does re-include rim brake models (which I doubt) there probably would be an associated 'study' by the manufacturer of that model explaining why they are better again.

mattr
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Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

youngs_modulus wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:41 pm
I remember when disc brakes were new in cyclocross, circa 2013. People were flipping out, saying that the pads don’t last through an entire muddy race and that cantilevers would win in the end. But look at CX fields now—somehow, people are able to finish races and even win them with disc brakes.
FWIW a lot of the early adopters of disc in CX actually didn't finish races due to worn out pads. They should have bedded them in, we saw similar issues with early MTB disc systems as well. (and to be fair, canti and V-brakes saw the same issues in longer events. I've had to swap v-brake pads half way through a marathon before now)
youngs_modulus wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:41 pm
sounds a lot like the gimlet-eyed suspicion I witnessed at the advent of disc brakes for mountain bikes and for cyclocross bikes.
Now that confuses me, all i can remember from the event of MTB discs was loads of cheap V/canti only frames, forks and wheels flooding the market. Which was good for me as a poor student. :)
youngs_modulus wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:41 pm
You say the benefits of discs for mountain bikes are easy to quantify. How does one quantify those benefits, and what is it about those methods that makes them invalid for road bikes?
Consistency of performance, doesn't matter how contaminated the rim gets, your brake works. Same (almost) every time. Road systems have the same benefit. But in racing terms, how often does your rim actually get contaminated enough to not have consistent performance? One race a year, two? I can't even remember my last actual proper wet race/event on the road. My last wet MTB race, was actually my most recent MTB race. And most of my races over the last few years that i can recall had significant amounts of mud.

Don't get me wrong, i can see the point of road discs. But for me (and many others) the price of entry for something that doesn't actually give any tangible benefit for the vast majority of my riding is far too high.

And as i said before, i'll have them on my training bike, as the riding i do in the winter regularly sees me with cacky rims and no brakes.

northwestern
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by northwestern

youngs_modulus wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:41 pm
But Northwestern seems to be suggesting that the shift to rim brakes is a cynical marketing conspiracy soon to be reversed in the name of...well, I’m not sure what. Yet that theory isn’t borne out by history and it doesn’t make a lot of sense on its own terms. It’s an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I’m all ears.
In the name of MAKING MONEY. LOOOL.

by Weenie


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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

Cost of two platforms (rim and disc option) vs vast majority sales is key here.
It doesn't mean we like it.
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