Colnago C60 Inflammatory Thread

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
GregarioForHire
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:58 pm

by GregarioForHire

I'm going to add a little bit of fuel to this fire by saying that I have to agree that the hype behind the brand lacks justification all the way down to the Master. One day out on a C59 was all I needed to realise that modern Colnagos just weren't for me, it was soft, heavy and for want of a better word, dull. Granted it was only around a quick ten around the block but my C64 experience hasn't erased that particular memory at all either. (I loved the C40 however, but that was a product of it's time and I measured that against it's then peers) Having owned a huge array fo high end steel bikes from the 80s (It's a thing I have). My Colnago Master, which was an aspirational bike since I was 8 was horrendously underwhelming and nowhere near on a par with say a Tommasini Super Prestige or Gios Torino. Even my Neuron tubed Coppi I rescued from a skip is a far better bike to ride. I sold it at a loss but it's probably one of only three steel frames I don't regret moving on.

That to me is what it is; it is an aspirational brand with a well respected and prestigious name yet simply does not measure up against the opposition, but that's ok. The world is full of brands like that. If riding a bike with Colnago on the downtube makes you happy that's cool, they fall incredibly short for me too though.

by Weenie


Js2
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 6:55 pm

by Js2

Not specific to the C60, but just my experience with colnago master.

I was really excited to order a colnago master pr82 and waited a few months for it to be made in Italy. When the frame came, I can pick out so many sub-par finish through out the frame. Paint over spray, bubbles, badly filled paint in logo on the lugs, dirty particles behind the clear coat, and rust on the steel fork inner. Marring and clear coat cracking near the bottom bracket and some more air bubbles on the seat stays. Don't even get me started about the threads on the BB and the finish inside the seat tube.. If I would've dropped in my carbon seatpost in there, I think it would've came out full of scratches and marring...

Ended up returning the frame which I was really bummed about. I had campy 11 sr ready to go along with the bb and threadless headset etc...

My Specialized Allez had way better finish and quality control. Made in Italy and Colnago :roll:.... Oh wait, it's also 2.5x the price of a Ritchey road logic. My Ritchey has no such issue and despite some people have the batch that has the clear coat cracking, Ritchey will take care of you no questions asked.

When I talked to the shop that supplied me the frame, they just basically said its hand painted and it's normal in colnago's defense.... I should've just ordered a custom stelbel or something else. rant over :beerchug:

GregarioForHire
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:58 pm

by GregarioForHire

Js2 wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:28 am
Not specific to the C60, but just my experience with colnago master.

I was really excited to order a colnago master pr82 and waited a few months for it to be made in Italy. When the frame came, I can pick out so many sub-par finish through out the frame. Paint over spray, bubbles, badly filled paint in logo on the lugs, dirty particles behind the clear coat, and rust on the steel fork inner. Marring and clear coat cracking near the bottom bracket and some more air bubbles on the seat stays. Don't even get me started about the threads on the BB and the finish inside the seat tube.. If I would've dropped in my carbon seatpost in there, I think it would've came out full of scratches and marring...

Ended up returning the frame which I was really bummed about. I had campy 11 sr ready to go along with the bb and threadless headset etc...

My Specialized Allez had way better finish and quality control. Made in Italy and Colnago :roll:.... Oh wait, it's also 2.5x the price of a Ritchey road logic. My Ritchey has no such issue and despite some people have the batch that has the clear coat cracking, Ritchey will take care of you no questions asked.

When I talked to the shop that supplied me the frame, they just basically said its hand painted and it's normal in colnago's defense.... I should've just ordered a custom stelbel or something else. rant over :beerchug:
+1 For the Ritchey Road Logic. That blew the Master away in absolutely every department. My Ritchey is top of the list of frames I DO regret selling. My Master was horrible.

RTW
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by RTW

welchy wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:37 pm
Maybe its the wheelsets some of these people have been using partly to blame?
Or maybe it is your wheelset which is amazing? :wink:
Your cycling kit is one size too big!

3Pio
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Leviathan wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:10 pm
zappafile123 wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:24 pm
Handling is among the best I've experienced, probably second best descender behind the Basso Diamante.
Love my Diamante. Great for a day in the mountains. My Pinarello F8 was great for putting the hammer down, as was the early edition Canyon I had before they got so huge... . Other bikes like the Time I had did all day comfort.
I rented a C60 here and struggled to really place it...Even the Cannondale Supersix seemed a much better all round bike.

Back in 2016, Went directly to Pinarello in Treviso to buy an F8 (and to upgrade from my FP3). Rented Dogma F8, and ride it about 130 km around Treviso... I was very lucky that i test rided C60 just few days before that (same wheelset, same tires).... Then i send email to every Colnago dealer aroundTreviso (200 km radius), and i was lucky enough one of them accepted to order for me from Milan, and to be able to pick it up whil i was there...

C60 is stiffer on climbing then F8, in same time more comfortable... I have many >200 km rides with plenty of climbing, and also some KOM's that i have beaten.... Also much higher quality vs Dofma F8 compared to their headset for example....

Owning 2 years and have about 20000 smile on my face km's.. And this is not my only bike (i still have Pinarello Fp3 as my winter bike)

If i bought F8 back in that time, im sure i would look for something else again.. Now my mind is just to ride and enjoy C60.. .When u test ride be sure u use same wheelset and same tires since that can make big difference....

mag
Posts: 405
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by mag

It would be interesting to see more detailed descriptions of what you're guy "missing" on the C60 ride. There are lots of very generic claims which don't point any directions as to where's the problem.

Few ideas come to my mind (based on what's been written here and what I got from riding mostly C64):
- less lively, muted feel, like if it was too isolated from the road (flying carpet? :-D )
- feel of sluggishness during periods of peak efforts, like if there was some more power lost somewhere in the system
- heavy feel, adds to the previous point especially when climbing

Note: These are all relative to other bikes you consider better in those aspects.
Is there anything else? Or am I totally wrong? And what were your expectations exactly?

Nevertheless it's going to be interesting where will Colnago go with their C-series. The currently used construction method has its limitations that are becoming more and more apparent in the world full of competition which has gone different directions. Sure these frames still seem to sell fine, but imagine time 5 or 10 years from now for example. There's some risk of it really becoming just a rich old man's bike, with no appeal to younger folks. Is that what they want?
With C64 we can see some potentially interesting changes like the seat cluster lug becoming integrated into the seat tube, some hints towards aero with the seatpost and the recessed bottle cage mounts on the down tube... Will they continue these directions going even more aero with all tube shapes, or with further integration of lugs? And with C64 they managed to reduce its weight quite a lot. I don't think there's a lot of room for further reductions given the current construction method. Will they eventually switch to the tube to tube construction? The lugged construction makes it unique, but will the market for that be big enough in the years to come? That's something I'm curious to see.

Regarding the finish quality and generally attention to detail - yes, I think they need some German high in the tech department to put things into the order. :-D

Also where they're lacking is aftersales support, warranty and the absence of any crash replacement program.

c50jim
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Location: Calgary

by c50jim

I've read all the comments in this post with quite a bit of interest. I've owned every carbon Colnago from the C40 to EPS, plus Master, Tecnos, Dream and Bi-titan. I'd rate all but the Bi-titan as good bikes. I've never had paint problems or anything break on any of my Colnagos. The only breakages experienced in my family were a Trek 5000 and a Cervelo R2.5, both replaced by dealers. I bought my first Colnago in 1995 at 44 and still ride them today - three C40s and an EP left since I've been pruning the inventory as I age. My Colnagos were all 59s except one 60 and a 54s but those handled pretty similarly to the 59s. I've also owned DeRosa, Pinarello, Pegoretti, Wilier, Moots, IF, Lemond, Trek, Parlee, Cramerotti, Open, Specialized, Norco, QR (my tri days) and ridden either my son's or rented Look, Cannondale, Canyon, Salsa. I ride about 10,000 km per year around Calgary, in Maui and various places in Europe and have ridden around Tucson and a couple of different parts of California. I'm now 67, 30 pounds heavier than I was when I rode really well, have had heart arhythmia problems for over 20 years and am cautious about going too hard. So, I'm basically one of those old guys that just ride what they like ... a lot.

I really like Colnago handling. Probably slow response at low speeds but stable and comfortable at high speeds. I've found that all the Italian geometry bikes I've ridden have shared the high speed stability whether made in Italy or Asia. That hasn't been true of all the American geometry bikes. In addition, the Colnago slow speed handling is different than the other Italian geo bikes. I found the Pinaarello the quickest handling at slow speeds but still stable at high speeds with Wilier, Pegoretti and Derosa in between.

Light the Colnago frames are not. Then again, neither am I.

My younger son used the EP on a trip to the Pyrenees in 2015 because his Look 585 didn't have a compact crank. He felt the Colnago was unresponsive and the Look now has a compact crank. However, his dislike of the bike didn't keep him from floating away from me so quickly coming down the Tourmalet that I couldn't even see him in the distance after a couple of km. So, whether you like it or not, it is predictable. I rode his Look in France last year when my bike hadn't made it onto the plane and he took pity on me and I liked it too. I'd be happy to ride a 585 any time. Same with the Canyon I rented in Girona this spring, a Pegoretti or Wilier.

I travel a lot with a bike and have had an S&S coupled bike since 2004 and a Bike Friday before that. In 2014, I decided I wanted a lighter travel bike so my LBS and I worked with Moots to build my "Moolnago" - a Moots frame with geometry as close as they could make it to Colnago's (some Moots measurements are in half cm only and Colnago uses tenths). If anything, that's the best bike of all. Its handling is slightly quicker than the Colnagos but not as quick as the Dogma and stable at speed as both of the Italian bikes are.

So, I'd say that the OP dislike of Colnagos is fine. They just aren't to his taste. As someone said in a different context, different strokes for different folks.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I get why people like colnagos, they don't float my boat except for the c40. It like my me and looks and some of the other bikes I have. A bike does not have to be the fastest or the lightest, the best finished to love it.

Are ferrari's the best cars in the world, no but there customers love them never the less.

Clean39T
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:29 am

by Clean39T

I bought a C60 not too long ago, and really enjoyed the handling/ride on my test run - but the hanger was a bit off, the headset was binding and looked like it had been over-tightened enough to damage it, the stem had been over-tightened by a previous owner to leave indents in the steerer, and there were weird paint/clear-coat issues as shown in the pics...so I sent it back. At the right price I'd try another, but I'd need to see it close up before handing over the money. They are beautiful frsmes though.

And add me to the list of people underwhelmed by the Master Light. But then again, I've had a lot of top-shelf custom steel, so I am a bit biased.

.

ImageImageImageImage

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk



tonytourist
Posts: 1312
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:13 am
Location: 93306

by tonytourist

I bought a C60 from a forum member and I should have inspected it prior to assembly because after my first ride on it I noticed the paint was cracking at the TT/ST lug. Fast forward 2 weeks and the paint issue was getting even worse as it spread to the rear of the lug and I could even see it beginning to have the same problem on the ST near the derailleur tab where it is obviously flexing. The frame also developed a paint issue where the brake cable enters the TT and it had a large black spot. The seller arranged for it to be sent back to Colnago but that repair took 6 months and it was half assed when I got it back! Aside from the lackluster finish, I really didn't think the ride was all that great. I kept hearing about the magical Colnago handling which is one of the reasons I purchased a C60 over a F10, but I was left underwhelmed by the performance of the Colnago once I actually rode it.

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Leviathan
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by Leviathan

3Pio wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:04 pm
Leviathan wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:10 pm
zappafile123 wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:24 pm
Handling is among the best I've experienced, probably second best descender behind the Basso Diamante.
Love my Diamante. Great for a day in the mountains. My Pinarello F8 was great for putting the hammer down, as was the early edition Canyon I had before they got so huge... . Other bikes like the Time I had did all day comfort.
I rented a C60 here and struggled to really place it...Even the Cannondale Supersix seemed a much better all round bike.

Back in 2016, Went directly to Pinarello in Treviso to buy an F8 (and to upgrade from my FP3). Rented Dogma F8, and ride it about 130 km around Treviso... I was very lucky that i test rided C60 just few days before that (same wheelset, same tires).... Then i send email to every Colnago dealer aroundTreviso (200 km radius), and i was lucky enough one of them accepted to order for me from Milan, and to be able to pick it up whil i was there...

C60 is stiffer on climbing then F8, in same time more comfortable... I have many >200 km rides with plenty of climbing, and also some KOM's that i have beaten.... Also much higher quality vs Dofma F8 compared to their headset for example....

Owning 2 years and have about 20000 smile on my face km's.. And this is not my only bike (i still have Pinarello Fp3 as my winter bike)

If i bought F8 back in that time, im sure i would look for something else again.. Now my mind is just to ride and enjoy C60.. .When u test ride be sure u use same wheelset and same tires since that can make big difference....
Yes I test with my wheels and tires. No I dont have many KOMS (you got any in Mallorca?), and Ive never ridden more than 316 kms in a day so you are clearly a much, much much better rider than me. But it doesnt make my opinion wrong. Its just my opinion.

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mrgray
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by mrgray

There is no magic in Colnago's except for:
- high speed handling (if you aren't used to bike's that handle well, it is pretty amazing, and is definitely good for the beginner i think. quite safe. no feeling of being able to push it too hard.
- C59 i owned in gloss black (size 52s) could get me in this rhythm that i still think about and would like back (ditto the bike)
- PR99 one of greatest paint schemes ever along with Saronni, Zabel. The bikes often look great.
- English BB threaded. Everything easy. Just wonderful. No pressfit horseshit.
- resale value
Bobo S&S Steel Bike - 7.5 kg
Oltre XR2- 6.6 kg
Look 585 - 6.8 kg
Look 695 SR :D

RocketRacing
Posts: 875
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 2:43 am

by RocketRacing

I have no dog in the fight (not a pinarello pun), but with hand made, there is often higher cost and more flaws. Robots and automation reduce errors.

Some people pay for that. They like the charm, the uniqueness, knowing it is hand made, and not prefect. It is like when wine glasses began to be made via automation. A market for hand made wine glasses sprung up... full of purpouseful bends in the stem and bubbles, to remind you that some giy on a hill made it in a garage workshop.. even if thise flaws were carefully engineered in a factory in china.

I think the problem with the colonago (or insert and hostorical/boutique brand here) is expectation, and we can look in the mirror to blame ourselves for raising the mystique. And maybe quality control has dropped. Maybe it got sold and the current owner is feeling the pressure in a very competative bike market. Maybe they are maxamizing profits by cutting corners on quality control, and slowly running a good name to the ground. Maybe their paint guy had a family health problem, and the new guy has a lot to learn... but the bikes need to keep rolling. Robots don’t have that kind of “charm”... yet many people swear by giant.

mattr
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Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

Bigger Gear wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:47 pm
The owner and mechanic, who is an engineer by education, always jokes about the "surprise factor" when he builds anything Italian, like there is almost always some minor issue that he has to sort out.
That was my experience when i started working with them (as a job) nearly 25 years ago. Everytime i've come back to them, there's always been a fair chance of something "odd" about them. Last one i actually built had no hole for one of the internally routed cables, the boss existed, but no one had bothered to actually put a hole in it for the inner. Dealing with the importers (or manufacturer) has usually been quite fraught as well. Glad i only have a few mates bikes to look after now, and only a couple are "true" italians. Most of the others are cookie cutter frames in italian paint. Quite often easier to build or work on a €300 frame with a €1000 paint job than a €5000 italian made frame. :lol:

We hired a couple of middle of the range colnagos when in spain earlier in the year. For the retail value i was expecting much more. Handling was pretty poor. Masses of understeer compared to what i'm used to. Really needed some effort to get it to turn in once you got up to speed. Didn't like any sort of braking in anything other than a straightline either. Tried to stand up *very* firmly. That caused some cursing!
Almost twice the price of some of the competition at similar spec levels.

The Di2 was nice though.

by Weenie


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dgasmd
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by dgasmd

Well, if you have been reading forums for any period of time, you'd find that there is always people who find the "claimed as best" stuff to be chit! I think there is such a thing as "expectations shape your reality" and also "you can't please everyone every time". Both are valid regardless of cost or fame. Then comes the question of "what is YOUR definition of best?" Regardless, you seem to hear a lot about "finishing issues".

MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE:
I ride for fun only. I do not rce nor do "balls to the wall" group rides. Cycling is my mental and physical therapy and anti-fat program. I can keep up with fast groups when in average shape, but I do prefer to ride solo. Do the occasional Fondo or century when meeting friends, which is now once every 1-2 years. I currently own a 11 y.o Look 595 Ultra and a Time RXR that is 10 y.o and both are flawless in finish to this date except for some minor color fading in the lettering from sun/UV exposure over the years. Both came otherwise flawless from the factory. That has been my experience with every bike in between I have owned as well. I ahve also bought over the years thousands worth of equipment and parts, all of which has worked exactly as advertised and none came with flaws. Huge exception is the Ciamillo Zero Gravity brakes. While light as advertised did worked like chit at stopping a bike and staying centered.

I am on my first Colnago, a C-60. It is about 10 months old. It came to me with a pretty blunt foock up: the downtube holes for the cage drilled too low. No sugar coating that. Everything else about the C-60 has been flawless. I compare it to bikes I've owned and still own. It is, FOR ME, a great fit and a good blend of many good things on other bikes with none of their downsides. It is comfortable for all day riding (I don't ride 300 miles/day like many claim), every bit of effort translates to movement (I don't pump out 1700 watts like many claim), I feel no flexing (I am not able to tell you the L side flange on the front hub flexes when seated only uphill like many claim), my vanity makes feels good in that I don't see many around ever, and it looks good enough to me. The frame/fork is no weight weenie material. Mine is a hair under 14Lb. I personally find 95% of the Colnago paint schemes to be chit aesthetically at best and visually unappealing to me. PR99, All black, all white, Saronni, and Zabel along with that redish V2-r color are notable exceptions. I do find the carbon lug construction to have an appeal to me, but I frankly couldn't tell you it makes any difference over other bikes I've had nor do I think it makes it superior at winning races in the pro ranks. I do agree that the price is a bit high, but the reasons one can argue forever. Pinnarelo and almost every other brand and make north of the $4500 cost for a frameset (Time and LOOK excluded) are made in a factory in asia in a mold using conveyor belt techniques and nobody seems to be bitching about those!!

Would I buy another in the future? Likely no. I do have to say that it is not because of disappointment on my current C-60. It is likely because I do tend to hang on to bikes I have enjoyed riding and this one ranks up there. I do think my next bike will likely be either a Look 795 Blade RS or a Time Scylon. Everything else looks generic aesthetically or offers nothing above the majority of bikes on the market. Regardless, this Colnago is also the last bike I will order from overseas. Cost and potential headaches associated with it makes it no longer an option at all. ZERO reason really.

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