hey weight weenies....have you regretted going disc OR aero?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Bigger Gear
Posts: 369
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:58 pm
Location: Wet coast, Canada

by Bigger Gear

Mep wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:40 pm
Could be just the crowd on this forum, but it seems like a good number of folks prefer rim brakes for general riding. I'm the same way and just bought a new aero bike to complement my 5kg climbing bike - guess what, it's on rim brakes too. It does scare me a little that major manufacturers are moving away from making rim brake bikes however.
I think what you are seeing is this forum has a lot of experienced riders. Myself, I've been riding seriously since 1991. That is a long time. I can appreciate what a disc brake offers for advantages (ultimately better braking, especially in the wet) but I am also able to see its drawbacks (complexity, weight). Even though I live in a wet climate, I can't see myself wanting more than one bike with discs. I'm only going to ride one bike on rainy days, but on the nice days I like choices :D My local terrain offers around 100m of elevation per 8km so I'm firmly in the rolling terrain category and braking on any rim surface has never ever been an issue. At the same time, I've ridden rim brakes all over Sonoma and Marin Country and lived to tell the tale. As to discs, I've already experienced the complexity factor, after just a few hundred km I had a DA 9120 lever start leaking fluid. It was replaced on warranty, but the wait was long and in the meantime I had to go source my own lever and get a shop to install because at that time I did not have the hose cutting tools and bleeding tools. This just won't happen on a rim brake bike! At the end of the day my best bikes are the ones I build and ride and maintain but require very little work other than routine things.

As for the industry and big brands, without sounding like a conspiracist, they have a lot to gain by pushing the disc brakes. It's essentially a win-win-win as the user has to buy a new bike, then his existing wheels aren't compatible, so he buys new wheels to have a spare set, then he has to work on the brakes and he goes and buys a bunch of new tools. Even with one bike I've already bought a spare wheelset (begrudgingly) and a bunch of disc specific tools.

IMO, every rider needs to evaluate his/her situation honestly and decide whether or not they need disc brakes on a road bike. For gravel or CX, it's more clear-cut but for a road rider who rides in mostly dry weather I believe the case for rim brakes is still very strong.

by Weenie


C36
Posts: 367
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

I waited to see more response before posting but I was not expecting to see so many people with a “at best average” feed back.
Lewn777 wrote: We need more people that can see disk brakes more objectively and stop with this whole honeymoon period love-in bs or by 2020 every new bike model is going to be disk only, and the cost of getting a mid-priced CF bike down to 6.8kg with pedals just went up $1500.
Indeed, they are very vocal and probably lead me to overestimate the what they represent in overall road cyclists.

I was discussing with a big Trek LBS in France, who told me disc brakes never exceeded 25% of their sales (was expecting more!!) and it didn’t increased in few month and start having the first people going back to rim brake.

As someone mentioned few messages above, there is a lot of interest for brands to convert people to disc. Marketing dept. must find growth, that’s their main job, and that’s by ultra far the biggest growth potential since Mavic invented / industrialised complete wheels (or the avalanche of carbon frames?). Stars align perfectly for all the big players, frame, groups, wheels, tire manufactures have all takes in disc adoption to accelerate material replacement.
We can be educated customers or not (and by saying so I also say that some people should chose disc brakes... probably not all the “fans” we see on different websites).



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C36
Posts: 367
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

For my personal experience I didn’t “come back” from disc but tested and decide not to go discs. The big no go was how the frame behaved. Two Supersix evo2 HM ultegra (even same colour) and the rim brake was behaving a “lot” better, more responsible during accelerations, smoother overall ride and better climbing...


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Jugi
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:10 am

by Jugi

Bigger Gear wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:59 pm
I can appreciate what a disc brake offers for advantages (ultimately better braking, especially in the wet) but I am also able to see its drawbacks (complexity, weight).

...

At the end of the day my best bikes are the ones I build and ride and maintain but require very little work other than routine things.
I think your point of the importance of mechanical simplicity gets underestimated often. A few weeks back I dismantled all components from my rim braking road bike’s frame. I took my time, cleaned some components while I was at it and I think it took me approximately about 45 minutes. It popped into my mind that pulling hydraulic brakes with integrated hoses off a frame might take 45 minutes in itself.

Bicycles don’t need overhauls very often, but I too appreciate a bicycle which is easy to adjust and work on whenever there are some small niggles popping up. When tech gets more complex, it is usually more time consuming to diagnose, adjust and maintain.

In an even bigger picture, all this added integration and proprietary solutions (which aero bike models seem to be competing on) make the bikes more complex as a whole. A more complex bike most likely receives less attention as everything is harder to take apart. That will eventually lead into making bikes discardable items, as they will be just easier to get rid of, rather than keep in good condition and enjoy for several years.

bedampft
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:04 pm

by bedampft

I've been riding top of the line (Rimbrake) Giant TCRs since 2014 (getting a new one every year), but for next year i've got a Propel Disc. So moving from light/non aero to Disc and Aero in one move.
General reason was not to get (again) a TCR, even with Discs, only one year before the new evolution of the frameset arrives. Especially because the MY2020 TCRs will be more Aero and integrated as well.
So after putting the first 1100km on the Propel Disc already, i'm now regretting getting this frameset. Why?
- i can't choose another dropbar, because Giant only builds a compact and only that one fits the stem.
- it is just to heavy. The complete bike weights 1kg more than my previous TCR with Rimbrakes with the same Dura Ace R9150 and wheelset weight.

I ride ~25.000km over a year, live in the blackforest, near the swiss alps, so climbing is my thing. As well as riding longer distances in the flat to the climbs. The Propel is nice for the way in and out, but definetly a lot less fun on the uphills, and not so diffrent in the downhills.

MoPho
Posts: 459
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Location: NorCal/SoCal

by MoPho

Lewn777 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:41 am
We need more people that can see disk brakes more objectively and stop with this whole honeymoon period love-in bs

So in other words, only people who agree with your bias see disc brakes "objectively"... :roll:




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parleez1
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 8:57 pm
Location: Boston, MAssachusetts

by parleez1

chiltonp wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:20 pm
I currently ride a 2016 TCR Advanced SL with Ultegra di2 and Giant SLR wheels. I enjoy lightweight bikes, as well as climbing and even in my bike's modest configuration it weighs sub 16 pounds ready to ride.

I now have the itch to upgrade to a disc or aero setup, (potentially both) and know that I'll take a pretty good hit in the weight department. Have any of you noticed these disc or aero bikes climbing slower or more sluggishly, (assuming your new setup is slightly heavier)? I rarely ride in the rain so that negates one of the big benefits of discs, however the latest and greatest tech always seems to appeal to me.

Thanks,
Chilton
I just went through a similar situation and itch for a disc bike. I had a 2014 Cannondale Super Six Evo Nano Black Inc with DA 9000 mechanical and Enve 3.4 tubular wheels. I thought I wanted disc brakes on my next bike. Test ride a Giant TCR Advanced SL Pro with Ultegra Di2 Disc set up, nice bike. Then I test ride a friends TCR Advanced SL 0 Red etap rim brake bike. I ultimately decided based on the kind of riding I do with no mountains and I don’t ride in the rain unless I’m caught in it, therefore I decided to stay rim brake and ordered a 2019 TCR Advanced Sl 0, it now has the SLR wheels that are 43mm deep, very excited to get it set up and on the road, hoping for a weight right around or under 14 lbs.
Good luck with your decision, everyone’s riding requirements are different, so what works for one person may not for another...what’s important is that we enjoy the ride...

C36
Posts: 367
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

MoPho wrote:
Lewn777 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:41 am
We need more people that can see disk brakes more objectively and stop with this whole honeymoon period love-in bs
So in other words, only people who agree with your bias see disc brakes "objectively"... Image
.
No I think less people like you who defend disc at all costs... while this post seems to show it’s not as fantastic as you say all the time.
But that’s a natural behaviour to defend an I portant investment... rate to see people recognising that they wouldn’t recommend their own previous choice. So quite surprise by the feedbacks shared here.



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MoPho
Posts: 459
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Location: NorCal/SoCal

by MoPho

C36 wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:00 am

No I think less people like you who defend disc at all costs... while this post seems to show it’s not as fantastic as you say all the time.
But that’s a natural behaviour to defend an I portant investment... rate to see people recognising that they wouldn’t recommend their own previous choice. So quite surprise by the feedbacks shared here.



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You mean as opposed to the people who whine about disc brakes at all costs? :roll:
The anti-disc folks are coming from position of trying defend their investment just the same. They are looking for any reason not to buy into it, they are worried that what they have will be obsolete, etc. I've been riding for over 25 years, I have lots of experience with rim brakes and had and have an investement in rim brakes too (still have a bunch of wheel sets and a bike sitting around), the big difference is I now also have several years of road disc (and MTB) experience that includes many different conditions, very fast technical descending, wrenching on it, etc. and I can see through the exaggerated or sometimes complete BS arguments folks keep making against disc brakes.

You are absolutely wrong in your accusation of the pro disc folks being the most vocal! Pro disc brake people like myself are almost always coming into these discussions from a position of defense pointing out the misinformation that is being pushed and noting that our experiences have been different, we don't start these debates, those against disc do! Go find me threads started by pro disc brake folk complaining about rim brakes or trying to prove why you shouldn't buy rim brakes. Show me threads about rim brake bikes where disc brake fans jumped in and started telling everyone about how rim brakes suck and people who use them are noobs who are suckers for marketing etc.. Ooh, the pros don't use them, so they are bad! But then of course, once the pros start using them, then it will be "they are being forced to do it, so they are bad".
I have over 21k kilometers on my current disc brake bike yet what someone who sold theirs after 350km says disc is bad and it is taken as gospel over my experience because you want to agree with them. That is called confirmation bias not objectivity.

And since you want to use annecdotal bike shop examples; I part time at a shop and all the bikes we sell come both as rim or disc brakes, there is no pressure to sell one over the other and I would say maybe 10% of the sales have been rim brake and most of those have been to people who are transfering parts off an old bike or have a bunch of wheels, etc.. They are selling well around here. And I haven't seen anyone come into the shop complaining about their disc brakes either.
In fact, know at least a dozen people on disc, some who were even against them originally and they all love them now. The internet is not reality, people tend to complain more than praise, and this forum in particular is not representative of many riders at large.

And of course you don't need disc brakes, no one is saying you do. I survived for decades without them ( I also survived with toe clips and downtube shifters) but like Di2 disc is an incremental improvement that is really nice to have, especially if you do a lot technical descending, even in the dry.

BTW You don't need a light bike either. :beerchug:



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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1881
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

As an example, people who barge into a Shiv Tri thread proclaiming how terrible it is for the bike industry to shove disc brakes on such a bike. The pro disc brake crowd are usually the ones on defense, fending off those rabid anti-disc voices who are so insecure in their position they need to resort to bully tactics.

alexdi
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:38 pm

by alexdi

I have one fancy road bike. It needs to work in the rain, so it has discs. If I had multiple fancy road bikes, one would probably have rim brakes. More elegant engineering, less weight, better ride. But I'd also pair it with aluminum wheels. Asking carbon to be a heatsink defeats much of the elegance to me.

Squashednuts
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:12 am
Location: Christchurch New Zealand

by Squashednuts

I'm not interested in promoting rim or disc brakes as being better
I live in a temperate climate, prone to rain in spring winter autumn
Commute daily, and ride lots of hills
don't want more than 1 bike
Disc brake bike works for me...maybe not others

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1881
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

alexdi wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:22 am
I have one fancy road bike. It needs to work in the rain, so it has discs. If I had multiple fancy road bikes, one would probably have rim brakes. More elegant engineering, less weight, better ride. But I'd also pair it with aluminum wheels. Asking carbon to be a heatsink defeats much of the elegance to me.
IMO even for those with multiple fancy bikes, it makes sense to sell the rim brake equipment off now while it still has residual value. That way I don't have wheelbags full of redundant wheels. The reality is disc brakes are here to stay and rim-brake frame development is winding down. It seems like the only good reason to hold onto that rim-brake bike is for the sentimental value.

bm0p700f
in the industry
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
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by bm0p700f

The only reason why the look 785 ( yet to be cabled up) us a rim brake frame is because I had a rim brake groupset already to fit to it. Given it not an all weather bike it's not essential that it has disc brakes. Sadly my winter bikes are all rim brakes machines and rims get eaten up. I'll just brake less.

I don't think the problem with the spec shiv is disc brakes, it is just ugly and the storage containers are ridiculous but then again I don't understand Tri so it's not for me.

Mr.Gib
Posts: 3215
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:08 am
As an example, people who barge into a Shiv Tri thread proclaiming how terrible it is for the bike industry to shove disc brakes on such a bike. The pro disc brake crowd are usually the ones on defense, fending off those rabid anti-disc voices who are so insecure in their position they need to resort to bully tactics.
Does this actually happen? I have read plenty of disc brake debate threads and have seen both good and bad arguments but bully tactics? I never looked at it like that. Might you be projecting just a tad?
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:15 am
...The reality is disc brakes are here to stay and rim-brake frame development is winding down. It seems like the only good reason to hold onto that rim-brake bike is for the sentimental value.
So the reality is that no one could actually prefer rim brake bikes for performance reasons, only sentimental reasons?
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

by Weenie


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