hey weight weenies....have you regretted going disc OR aero?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
robeambro
Posts: 451
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

To be honest I don't understand why most people seem to get hysterical about disc brakes.

From bike manufacturers' marketing, I don't think I've ever read anything more than "brake safely in all conditions with the new XXX disc".

Pro-rim customers reactions to that is: "OMGG are they saying that YOU WILL DIE IF YOU RIDE RIM BRAKES?!? That is CRAZY!! I do descents in the wet with carbon wheels and I survived!! They just want to FOOL US into believing YOU CANNOT RIDE RIMS!! SCAM!! OMGAHWD!!"

Jeez..

by Weenie


Multebear
Posts: 1262
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm

by Multebear

Only bad thing about discs is, that I have a lot of money invested in rimbrake bikes. It annoys me, that the big brands want to pull even more money out of my pocket - as if they haven’t ripped me of enough already. I acknowledge all the advantages of discs. Better braking both downhill and in the wett, one wheelset for all purposes and so on. But I’m also sceptic of all the standards in play. What about when nobody can live without boost axles. Everything has to be upgraded again.

I know this already happened when going from 8 to 9 speed, from 9 to 10 speed and so on. I know, that I don’t have to upgrade if I don’t want to. But now things look like rimbrake bikes don’t get upgraded at all. S5, TMR01, Systemsix only come in disc version. They really don’t want to let us keep our rimbrake gear.

I’m aware that nobody forces me to upgrade. But I lets say had a crash and broke the frame, but grouppo and wheels were fine, worst case I would be forced to upgrade whole bike.

romanmoser
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 8:30 pm

by romanmoser

Buy the trek then also available in rim brakes
they are not ever been as many choices as today ...
stop complaining guys :|

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Lewn777
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

Multebear wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:15 pm
Only bad thing about discs is, that I have a lot of money invested in rimbrake bikes. It annoys me, that the big brands want to pull even more money out of my pocket - as if they haven’t ripped me of enough already. I acknowledge all the advantages of discs. Better braking both downhill and in the wett, one wheelset for all purposes and so on. But I’m also sceptic of all the standards in play. What about when nobody can live without boost axles. Everything has to be upgraded again.

I know this already happened when going from 8 to 9 speed, from 9 to 10 speed and so on. I know, that I don’t have to upgrade if I don’t want to. But now things look like rimbrake bikes don’t get upgraded at all. S5, TMR01, Systemsix only come in disc version. They really don’t want to let us keep our rimbrake gear.

I’m aware that nobody forces me to upgrade. But I lets say had a crash and broke the frame, but grouppo and wheels were fine, worst case I would be forced to upgrade whole bike.
You don't even need to crash your rim brake bike, just hit a pot-hole fast enough at speed and you can easily crack a seat stay or seat tube.
In two to five years time we could be in a situation where you are forced to buy a 'retro' artisan titanium rim frameset or throw away thousands of dollars of parts, mostly in the form of wheels. If you're going to want a competitive modern race bike; time to buy everything again. That would be tolerable, but then how do we know standards are set and we're not buying into some kind of 'Betamax' axle standard or brake mounting system where you end up stuck into some outdated frameset and wheel combo?

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Lewn777
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

romanmoser wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:08 pm
Buy the trek then also available in rim brakes
they are not ever been as many choices as today ...
stop complaining guys :|
Have people learned nothing from the 26" to 27.5" mountain bike wheel disaster? :roll:

spdntrxi
Posts: 2625
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

I just picked up a disc brake Tri bike... going all in.

I'm fully enjoying the disc brakes on my allroader and I have not even rode in the damp yet, fenders are ready JIC. Thinking of getting my wife a diverge so we can ride around the levee's and stay off the streets. No regrets so far.

bedampft
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:04 pm

by bedampft

Lewn777 wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:21 pm
Multebear wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:15 pm
Only bad thing about discs is, that I have a lot of money invested in rimbrake bikes. It annoys me, that the big brands want to pull even more money out of my pocket - as if they haven’t ripped me of enough already. I acknowledge all the advantages of discs. Better braking both downhill and in the wett, one wheelset for all purposes and so on. But I’m also sceptic of all the standards in play. What about when nobody can live without boost axles. Everything has to be upgraded again.

I know this already happened when going from 8 to 9 speed, from 9 to 10 speed and so on. I know, that I don’t have to upgrade if I don’t want to. But now things look like rimbrake bikes don’t get upgraded at all. S5, TMR01, Systemsix only come in disc version. They really don’t want to let us keep our rimbrake gear.

I’m aware that nobody forces me to upgrade. But I lets say had a crash and broke the frame, but grouppo and wheels were fine, worst case I would be forced to upgrade whole bike.
You don't even need to crash your rim brake bike, just hit a pot-hole fast enough at speed and you can easily crack a seat stay or seat tube.
In two to five years time we could be in a situation where you are forced to buy a 'retro' artisan titanium rim frameset or throw away thousands of dollars of parts, mostly in the form of wheels. If you're going to want a competitive modern race bike; time to buy everything again. That would be tolerable, but then how do we know standards are set and we're not buying into some kind of 'Betamax' axle standard or brake mounting system where you end up stuck into some outdated frameset and wheel combo?
Oh jeez. :roll:
Go to the Internet, take a look around. Are you seeing all those beautiful new old stock rimbrake framesets from yesteryear? Good, maybe buy one. Maybe not immediatly, maybe you'll find that, in a few years time ( lets 's say 5 years in the future?), there will be plenty of NOS rimbrake framsets from MY2018 around? Today you can still get new Addict RC framesets from MY11 with warranty and shit.

Or maybe look from another angle: Ever tried to fit a modern wide carbon wheelset with 28mm tires into an old BR-7700 caliper on your CAAD5 oder C40?

New Standards are never "set" and will always be around for only a few years. Get over it. It's called evolution.
I would never want to ride my old 10s wheelsets ever again. Same goes for early carbon "highperformance" framesets.

Tell my again, why it is so horrible diffrent and bad what will, eventually, happen to rimbrakes? Same has happend to all that other old stuff you mentioned?
Would anyone, in "need" of a high performance roadbike, really go back to mechanical Dura Ace 7900, 23mm tires, 15C rims with lots of spokes and framesets with 1 1/8 steerer tubes, 25,4mm bar clamps and 31,6mm seatposts? I don't think so.
All this old stuff was ultimatly replaced by something better. Disc brakes are better. Heck, you still can buy premium aluminium framesets from big manufactures like Giant, Trek, Specialized and Cannondale. And those are way better than the old stuff.

If you're not careful, you'll end up like that one dude that shows up at my shop every once in while, who only rides the good stuff from his youth. That guy is 61 years old and still bitching about STI Levers.

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C36
Posts: 543
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

bedampft wrote: New Standards are never "set" and will always be around for only a few years. Get over it. It's called evolution.
I can’t believe you are so naive, it’s called marketing. That’s exactly the purpose of marketing dept, to find growth.
Marketing can come with progress (I haven’t said the contrary, but don’t, don’t invert who come first) but in this case it’s exactly like the mtb wheel size : market dept found subsequent new stds covered under a paint of “evolution” (from three-four years ago I still remember an internal marketing slide about the cycle for wheel size), for disc brakes you will have at least two cycles of stds to ensure you push people to change their material (boost hubs, larger rotors, more integrated brakes...).
The very day the uci will drop weight limit from 6.8 to 5kg you will see the light (“still with amazing aero”) bikes all over the place and rim brakes options presented as a “back to the basics, purer, approach”.

I have nothing against this, two of my very good friends are on bike marketing dept, but just need to have it in mind, what their job is.

Edit: a month ago I was discussing with an engineer who confirmed that his brand was “lobbying” the UCI not to drop the minimum bike weight... not to negatively impact their “investment on disc bikes”.

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bedampft
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:04 pm

by bedampft

C36 wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:15 pm
bedampft wrote: New Standards are never "set" and will always be around for only a few years. Get over it. It's called evolution.
I can’t believe you are so naive, it’s called marketing. That’s exactly the purpose of marketing dept, to find growth.
Marketing can come with progress (I haven’t said the contrary, but don’t don’t invert who come first) but in this case it’s exactly like the mtb wheel size : market dept found subsequent new stds covered under a paint of “evolution” (from three-four years ago I still remember an internal marketing slide about the cycle for wheel size), for disc brakes you will have at least two cycles of stds to ensure you push people to change their material (boost hubs, larger rotors, more integrated brakes...).
The very day the uci will drop weight limit from 6.8 to 5kg you will see the light (“still with amazing aero”) bikes all over the place and rim brakes options presented as a “back to the basics, purer, approach”.
Naive, yeah right :roll:
Of course there is money to be made, of course there is marketing, but without it, we would still ride with downtube shifters.
(Road) discbrakes are not the same minor evolution as 20x100mm -> 15x100mm -> 15x110mm -> 20x110mm. And for sure not comparable to the wheelsize debate on MTBs. The way things went back then were by far not ideal. But ultimately bigger wheels are far better then smaller ones. And discbrakes are also far better then rimbrakes.

And if you're just talking about "needing more new parts" to fit the "other new part" (disc brakes), you are absolutly right. BUT as with the waggon wheels, disc brakes are not a minor step forward, it's a whole new level in performance. Wider rims and more space on frames for wider tires. A whole new bike category (adventure bikes) is evolving around those stupid ass road discbrakes. But the again: My grandfather crossed the alpes with his singlespeed militarycycle back in the days. What do we know? Why even bother with gravelbikes, right?

As i sad earlier: i would never ever ride stuff from 10 years ago again, when i got "high performance" in mind. For leasure riding? Sure, why not? But racing? Nope.
We are talking about Downtube shifters 2 STIs, V-Brakes 2 Discbrakes, rigid forke 2 suspension forke, threaded to aheadset.
I'm still riding rimbrakes on two roadbikes, but those definitely never again in the wet. For bad weather i've got my disc bike.

/Oh, and is till recommend rimbrake roadbikes to my customers, if it makes sense for they're intenden riding.

//We could depate this till no one even will remeber rimbrakes, but the bottom line is this:
Does it have a serious gain in performance for the average rider? In this case discbrakes do have this. Better, more reliable and with less force useable brakes generally benefit everyone.
Does Aero have this? No, not in the realworld anyway, with coffee stops, instagram posing, traffic lights, traffic laws and other roadusers in general, as with not quit so fit riders with a low average speed.
All your points above, apply to the aero-trend, but not discbrakes.

Mep
Posts: 469
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 4:11 pm

by Mep

Ultimately it really does come down to the type of riding each person does, as you said yourself. Many choose not to ride in the wet.. not everyone lives close to mountains.. etc. Disc brakes are definitively heavier than rim brakes, the question is whether the weight gain is justified.

You're saying there will come a day where "no one will remember rim brakes". Maybe, if we get to the point where there is no more weight penalty.

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C36
Posts: 543
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

bedampft wrote:
//We could depate this till no one even will remeber rimbrakes, but the bottom line is this:
Does it have a serious gain in performance for the average rider? In this case discbrakes do have this. Better, more reliable and with less force useable brakes generally benefit everyone.
Does Aero have this? No, not in the realworld anyway, with coffee stops, instagram posing, traffic lights, traffic laws and other roadusers in general, as with not quit so fit riders with a low average speed.
All your points above, apply to the aero-trend, but not discbrakes.
I initially missed the last part of your message and didn’t want to aliment the sidetrack but that’s just probably the less accurate statement read in a long time.

First aero applies ALL the time, flat, descents, hills, slow and fast. Opposed to brakes that apply... only when you brake. Physics will show you that the time gain is high when you don’t go that fast, it has been discussed few times here. Now as people mentioned it here the confort and how it rides may not fit everybody. But that’s a different topic.

Then Disc brakes don’t make you any gain in “performance” : they are more confortable, they don’t bring “performance”, descents are all on how fast you turn not how hard you brake, Pro teams ran few tests. Not a recent one but one I discussed in detail with a Telekom advisor / engineer in 2005
- Jan Ullrich initially had issues in the GT descents and in 98 or 99 did different test to improve it, from body position inspired by moto 500 to different rims, brake pads... and it was just that he was entering the turn slower than others... braking 1m after doesn’t count.
- red bull did a road race descending few years ago at the alpes d’huez. You could go on any bike, road, DH, stick 3” thick slicks 200mm discs brakes, rigid or xxx mm suspensions... anything you wanted. Race happened under the rain and who won? Frederic Moncassin, a sprinter, retired for 10 years already, on a road bike with mid 90s brakes... discs don’t make you faster, safer, more relax yes but don’t call this “performance” even less “serious”.


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Lewn777
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

Come on people simply look at disk brake calipers. They are simply ported across from MTB and they are heavy and prone to disk rub, uneven piston movement and the pads are actuatated from too close to the rotor. One of my friends (bike shop owner and mechanic) uses TRP calipers with an Ultrega system as he's so unimpressed with Shimano disk calipers.

In the future probably the UCI might drop the weight limit ad there will be huge pressure on disk brake redesign incl dropping weight and improved function. Mountings are going to change, bolt sizes are going to come down and rotor sizes may get smaller, axle standards may also change. If you've bought a disk brake bike at this stage of development you've probably bought yourself into a redundant dead end, because chances are in time road disk brakes are going to get better....but it's going to cost serious money.

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 2671
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

If you talk of progress, have you considered the advancements in carbon composites?
When the advancement in composites step up, the old frames probably become of less value.
I read Specialized already looking into this.

Talking disc brakes, yes, they are great. However, i really dislike to hassle with the brake fluid.
I still hope TRP and others will work with advancements of wire attenuated brake calipers.
Then there is no need for change of shifters, or leaking calipers.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

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kgt
Posts: 7505
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Location: Athens, Greece

by kgt

It's funny that many people think that technology just evolves at a straight line forward. This is not true. The way technology advances is very complicated. It is related to culture, the market, society, mentalities, politics, and many many other things. There is a dedicated field on this. It is called STS studies.

Talking about discs... The top road cyclists in the world but do not use them although they can have them anytime they want, perfectly tuned by their mechanics. They just prefer rim brakes.
BTW in a downhill road race (similar to the one C36 describes) a steel frame (yes, steel) with alu wheels and rim brakes would probably be the best, safest, fastest one.

by Weenie


3Pio
Posts: 1155
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

I'll compare this to MTB first..


I have Magura Marta SL disc on my MTB Bike (Specialized Epic Marathon Carbon).

If i can pick a MTB bike with XTR V-Brakes and KoolStop brake pads, i'll probably think twice and maybe ill opt for a XTR V-Brake version (which i was using long time before i had to switch to discs).. And this is on MTB.. Why? Heavier, more maintence, more time to adjust them for not rubbing..

Similar as 29" wheels in MTB.. Just marketing thing.. I had a chance to test ride back in time 29" version of EPIC and i prefered mine by big margin (26" ), so decided that i dont need new bike so still have it.. Im not slower then guys with 29" wheelset..

On Road bike, i really dont get the point of discs.. I have three pair of wheelset: Shamal Ultra clinchers, Bora 35 tubs (from Januari 2017), and now even discs becoming more popular i bought in May Bora One 50 wheelset.. Now if im buying a new frame or bike, will definetely be Rim Brakes again (and not because i have wheelset)..Its just more simple, cheaper for maintence, u can fix it in the middle of ride if it's needed, brake pads last so long...Easier to swap wheelset, lighter... Etc, etc..


Im surrounded with mountains so almost every ride have minimum 500 meters climb , average is 1200 meters per ride. That mean downhill as well and plenty steep grades (10-20%) . Also summer time temperatures very often 40 degrees.. I found Carbon Rim wheelset have perfect braking, very good modulation even for mountains area i live.. Also few times had to go down on rain, no problem at all..On Alloy better in wet, same in dry... I really cant see that discs are needed in Road bikes...

About Aero.. Yes, some of Aero bikes look nice.. But again i found that Aero is probably marketing, since the biggest frontal area is ur body and position.. So always funny to see AERO bikes with wide handlebars and plenty of spacers.. Would i buy AERO bike? If i like how it look maybe.. But that decision will be based on look, not because of Aero properties.. For example i really like how Bianchi Oltre XR4 look with Bora 50....


But at the end, if new technlogies will push up ur motivation to ride more, then ok.. Than going discs or aero make sense.. Of course this is just my opinion..

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