hey weight weenies....have you regretted going disc OR aero?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Rim brake bikes will be around for as long as there is demand. Given time rim brakes will disappear from mass produced except the cheaper ones perhaps.

by Weenie


NickJHP
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:22 am

by NickJHP

I have one disc brake bike (Open U.P.P.E.R. frame). For rides that are mainly on sealed roads with a few unsealed sections, I have a set of 700c wheels with 30mm tyres. For rides that are mainly on unsealed roads, some of which are fairly rough, I have a set of 650b wheels with 48mm tyres. With a rim brake bike, the only way to swap wheel sizes in this manner would be to also swap the brake calipers at the same time from short reach to long reach, which would be far too laborious to do on any sort of regular basis, plus the long reach brakes flex more noticeably. With disc brakes, once I'd shimmed the rotors to ensure that I don't get disc rub with either set of wheels, it's a one or two minute job to swap between wheel sizes.

MagicShite
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:33 pm

by MagicShite

Lewn777 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:30 am
jlok wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:07 am
alignment of rotor tends to be a bit more difficult when the pads and rotor are new. After some hard braking break in processes the pads/rotor clearance will open up a bit and there would be no more ticking noise. I honestly don't find this noise on my 5 disc brake road bikes.
Or just save youself the hassle and buy one of these....
Image
i have this.

It doesn't work, and will make your problems far worse than before.

There is a specific trick to making aligning disc calipers work so that it remains problem free until you have to change your brake pads.

1. Check your pistons (sticky pistons are annoying, fix it)
2. Check if your rotor is severely warped
3. Check the tolerance between your caliper and your frame mount (you may have to file your frame brake mount flat if the tolerance is out too much)
4. Check for air bubbles in your brake line.
5. Pro Secret Tip: don't use the default recommended torque stated in the shimano manual. It is most likely too tight and will end up "warping" your frame mount together with the caliper, making the problem worse. Shimano Torque recommendations should only be followed when it is shimano vs shimano components.

The default shimano instructions outlined in their tech manual doesn't work. You have to really make sure everything is correct from head to toe. Once you "get it", your setup remains problem free until you have to swap to new pads.

IDEALLY, you want to be able to push the pistons way in, mount your calipers in AND lock it down, put in new pads, press your levers a bit, and VOILA

On MTBs, they are much more vulnerable to these alignment issues due to the severity of usage. RB's, I doubt they come even close. Just set PROPERLY and forget.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1874
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by TobinHatesYou

Those tools/shims like the Hayes and Birzman only work to align the caliper body's axial rotation. They don't do a good job centering the caliper, which is an issue because most pistons/pads don't advance at the exact same rate. I still end up just using my eyeballs to align the calipers. I merely use those tools as spacers to bring the pads in closer before alignment.

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themidge
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by themidge

(hydraulic) Disc brakes are the best thing that's happened to bike shops in years, all the newbs (and not-so-newbs) have to take their bikes in to be fixed instead of being able to do it by themselves with a multi-tool. You just can't get around the fact that disc brakes are more complicated than rim brakes, they require more tools, experience/training/mechanical knowledge, you have to actually bother reading the instructions :wink: , etc. Everyone and their grandma can set up dual pivot* rim brakes with no more than a couple of allen keys and a bit of common sense, the same cannot be said of hydo discs.
Re: the shiv thread. I don't see why criticising a bike for it's brake choice is any bad thing. The problem there is not about the disc brakes themselves, it's that the bike has them at all.
Obviously both systems have their advantages and disadvantages. It's a matter of compromise whichever one you use and therefore highly based on individual choice, which is why it's a shame that manufacturers seem to be starting to phase out rim brakes at all levels.

*single pivot require a bit more effort and maybe a spanner, especially when juggling mudguards, to stop them going wonky when you tighten them. Dual pivots don't have this problem :D .

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Lewn777
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

C36 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:22 pm
I waited to see more response before posting but I was not expecting to see so many people with a “at best average” feed back.
Lewn777 wrote: We need more people that can see disk brakes more objectively and stop with this whole honeymoon period love-in bs or by 2020 every new bike model is going to be disk only, and the cost of getting a mid-priced CF bike down to 6.8kg with pedals just went up $1500.
Indeed, they are very vocal and probably lead me to overestimate the what they represent in overall road cyclists.

I was discussing with a big Trek LBS in France, who told me disc brakes never exceeded 25% of their sales (was expecting more!!) and it didn’t increased in few month and start having the first people going back to rim brake.

As someone mentioned few messages above, there is a lot of interest for brands to convert people to disc. Marketing dept. must find growth, that’s their main job, and that’s by ultra far the biggest growth potential since Mavic invented / industrialised complete wheels (or the avalanche of carbon frames?). Stars align perfectly for all the big players, frame, groups, wheels, tire manufactures have all takes in disc adoption to accelerate material replacement.
We can be educated customers or not (and by saying so I also say that some people should chose disc brakes... probably not all the “fans” we see on different websites).



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It's all a slippery slope. First disk brakes have allowed them to 'open up' the design on the back of the bike for 'improvements' (marginal gains). Then they'll decide well actually the front hub width should be 110x15mm for more stability, instead of 100x12. Then they'll think hmm no 15mm too heavy but let's go 12x120. Then on the back they'll go to 140mm so you can get more gears, let's say a 14 speed system can now be fitted, then they can have a bigger range with a 11-40 cassette, then they'll change the seat tube design and kill the front derailleur to make the rear of the frame 1.56% more aero. Then they'll think hmm no, lets go 145 boost plus so we can a new 15x system. Then they'll decide the seatpost width should be different let's go narrower for more compliance, then maybe the fork steerer is too narrow, lets go wider there for more stability. Then they do tests with 750c wheels and find it holds it's speed better with a top pro and goes 3.54 seconds faster over 40km.

So in five years time they'll be a mess of standards. Most of your wheels won't fit or any of your parts, but some will with adaptors. I'm not running a F1 freaking team, I can't affford this s**t.

I warn ye. I've seen all this with MTB, buy a rim bike now and give things 5+ years for the market to settle down. :twisted:

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Lewn777
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

MagicShite wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:40 am
Lewn777 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:30 am
jlok wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:07 am
alignment of rotor tends to be a bit more difficult when the pads and rotor are new. After some hard braking break in processes the pads/rotor clearance will open up a bit and there would be no more ticking noise. I honestly don't find this noise on my 5 disc brake road bikes.
Or just save youself the hassle and buy one of these....
Image
i have this.

It doesn't work, and will make your problems far worse than before.

There is a specific trick to making aligning disc calipers work so that it remains problem free until you have to change your brake pads.

1. Check your pistons (sticky pistons are annoying, fix it)
2. Check if your rotor is severely warped
3. Check the tolerance between your caliper and your frame mount (you may have to file your frame brake mount flat if the tolerance is out too much)
4. Check for air bubbles in your brake line.
5. Pro Secret Tip: don't use the default recommended torque stated in the shimano manual. It is most likely too tight and will end up "warping" your frame mount together with the caliper, making the problem worse. Shimano Torque recommendations should only be followed when it is shimano vs shimano components.

The default shimano instructions outlined in their tech manual doesn't work. You have to really make sure everything is correct from head to toe. Once you "get it", your setup remains problem free until you have to swap to new pads.

IDEALLY, you want to be able to push the pistons way in, mount your calipers in AND lock it down, put in new pads, press your levers a bit, and VOILA

On MTBs, they are much more vulnerable to these alignment issues due to the severity of usage. RB's, I doubt they come even close. Just set PROPERLY and forget.
Like seriously what the hell are you talking about? This tool is rated 10/10 on every site it's sold on and I've used it about 20 times on the four hydrualic disk brake mountain bikes I own. You put each metal bit between the pad and the rotor, then you hold the brake on and torque the bolts up to spec. Then everything is perfectly aligned. Easy as pie.

Must be user error on your part, or you're just trolling. :thumbup:
Last edited by Lewn777 on Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lewn777
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:55 am
Those tools/shims like the Hayes and Birzman only work to align the caliper body's axial rotation. They don't do a good job centering the caliper, which is an issue because most pistons/pads don't advance at the exact same rate. I still end up just using my eyeballs to align the calipers. I merely use those tools as spacers to bring the pads in closer before alignment.
The reason that the pads don't advance at the same rate is usually because the pistons are dirty. Pull the pads out and pump the lever to expose as much piston as you dare (maybe a squeeze or two) and get in there are clean the entire inside of the caliper incl the pistons and maybe put a very small dab silicon grease on the pistons with a q-tip when everthing has dried, then gently force the pistons back into their body with something like a plastic tire lever. If that doesn't fix it then you should try a rebleed, sometimes there can be trapped air or some dirt or other contamination in the line accumulates after a year.

MagicShite
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:33 pm

by MagicShite

Lewn777 wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:05 pm
Must be user error on your part, or you're just trolling. :thumbup:
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Mep
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 4:11 pm

by Mep

Lewn777 wrote:
So in five years time they'll be a mess of standards. Most of your wheels won't fit or any of your parts, but some will with adaptors. I'm not running a F1 freaking team, I can't affford this s**t.

I warn ye. I've seen all this with MTB, buy a rim bike now and give things 5+ years for the market to settle down. :twisted:
This, is the reason why I've bought a new aero bike on rim brakes. History does repeat itself.

I don't actually believe that eventually rim brakes will get phased out from the top end lineups. Maybe initially, but not eventually.. I sincerely hope not. In this case, unlike MTB I don't see the performance improvement to be as large and as this forum shows, there are still lots of rim brake supporters for the type of riding they do. All you need is a manufacturer to cater to that, say a Canyon, and the sales should prove themselves. And manufacturers have to care about making more sales.

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Lewn777
Posts: 363
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by Lewn777

Mep wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:58 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
So in five years time they'll be a mess of standards. Most of your wheels won't fit or any of your parts, but some will with adaptors. I'm not running a F1 freaking team, I can't affford this s**t.

I warn ye. I've seen all this with MTB, buy a rim bike now and give things 5+ years for the market to settle down. :twisted:
This, is the reason why I've bought a new aero bike on rim brakes. History does repeat itself.

I don't actually believe that eventually rim brakes will get phased out from the top end lineups. Maybe initially, but not eventually.. I sincerely hope not. In this case, unlike MTB I don't see the performance improvement to be as large and as this forum shows, there are still lots of rim brake supporters for the type of riding they do. All you need is a manufacturer to cater to that, say a Canyon, and the sales should prove themselves. And manufacturers have to care about making more sales.
Yes, your analysis is correct, this is consumer driven. The pros have fought the corner of rim brakes for three seasons, now it's over to us the consumer. Nobody is saying there shouldn't be a disk option, I think it's good. However if we don't stand up and fight to keep a rim brake option they absolutely will go away. Now look at the MTB industry they've done away with 26 inch wheels, now it looks like the death of 27.5 and everything will be 29. Sure Greg Minnaar at 188cm suits 29er. But for Asians? Really? The industry know that costs are lower when they manufacture one standard (for that season).

This will all play into the hands of the big players, because the small players can't keep up with the changes, the consumer will suffer through extra cost adn compatability options.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

Most people buys in to latest and greatest. So if disc brakes is just that, i guess most people buy disc brakes.
The same goes for aero. Before aero all was weight and design.
I don't like the bleeding process, so i wish mechanical disc brakes could be better.
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LeDuke
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by LeDuke

Lewn777 wrote:
Mep wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:58 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
So in five years time they'll be a mess of standards. Most of your wheels won't fit or any of your parts, but some will with adaptors. I'm not running a F1 freaking team, I can't affford this s**t.

I warn ye. I've seen all this with MTB, buy a rim bike now and give things 5+ years for the market to settle down. :twisted:
This, is the reason why I've bought a new aero bike on rim brakes. History does repeat itself.

I don't actually believe that eventually rim brakes will get phased out from the top end lineups. Maybe initially, but not eventually.. I sincerely hope not. In this case, unlike MTB I don't see the performance improvement to be as large and as this forum shows, there are still lots of rim brake supporters for the type of riding they do. All you need is a manufacturer to cater to that, say a Canyon, and the sales should prove themselves. And manufacturers have to care about making more sales.
Yes, your analysis is correct, this is consumer driven. The pros have fought the corner of rim brakes for three seasons, now it's over to us the consumer. Nobody is saying there shouldn't be a disk option, I think it's good. However if we don't stand up and fight to keep a rim brake option they absolutely will go away. Now look at the MTB industry they've done away with 26 inch wheels, now it looks like the death of 27.5 and everything will be 29. Sure Greg Minnaar at 188cm suits 29er. But for Asians? Really? The industry know that costs are lower when they manufacture one standard (for that season).

This will all play into the hands of the big players, because the small players can't keep up with the changes, the consumer will suffer through extra cost adn compatability options.
Kate Courtney is 162cm and won the XCO World Championship on a 29er. Unless someone has abnormally short legs for their height, they should be able to get a proper hip angle on a 29er.


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C36
Posts: 361
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

LeDuke wrote:
Lewn777 wrote:
Mep wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:58 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
So in five years time they'll be a mess of standards. Most of your wheels won't fit or any of your parts, but some will with adaptors. I'm not running a F1 freaking team, I can't affford this s**t.

I warn ye. I've seen all this with MTB, buy a rim bike now and give things 5+ years for the market to settle down. :twisted:
This, is the reason why I've bought a new aero bike on rim brakes. History does repeat itself.

I don't actually believe that eventually rim brakes will get phased out from the top end lineups. Maybe initially, but not eventually.. I sincerely hope not. In this case, unlike MTB I don't see the performance improvement to be as large and as this forum shows, there are still lots of rim brake supporters for the type of riding they do. All you need is a manufacturer to cater to that, say a Canyon, and the sales should prove themselves. And manufacturers have to care about making more sales.
Yes, your analysis is correct, this is consumer driven. The pros have fought the corner of rim brakes for three seasons, now it's over to us the consumer. Nobody is saying there shouldn't be a disk option, I think it's good. However if we don't stand up and fight to keep a rim brake option they absolutely will go away. Now look at the MTB industry they've done away with 26 inch wheels, now it looks like the death of 27.5 and everything will be 29. Sure Greg Minnaar at 188cm suits 29er. But for Asians? Really? The industry know that costs are lower when they manufacture one standard (for that season).

This will all play into the hands of the big players, because the small players can't keep up with the changes, the consumer will suffer through extra cost adn compatability options.
Kate Courtney is 162cm and won the XCO World Championship on a 29er. Unless someone has abnormally short legs for their height, they should be able to get a proper hip angle on a 29er.


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I am far from an expert on bigger mtb wheels but on the road, many frame builder will start looking for 650 wheels below 155-160cm. Isn’t 29’ + big tires making it worse? Won’t the small frames end up with extremely long geometries?
Why I am sure on the saga from different wheel size is that it’s pure marketing work to force subsequent material change (source: marketing dept of a US manufacturer...).


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by Weenie


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Lewn777
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

LeDuke wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:38 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
Mep wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:58 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
So in five years time they'll be a mess of standards. Most of your wheels won't fit or any of your parts, but some will with adaptors. I'm not running a F1 freaking team, I can't affford this s**t.

I warn ye. I've seen all this with MTB, buy a rim bike now and give things 5+ years for the market to settle down. :twisted:
This, is the reason why I've bought a new aero bike on rim brakes. History does repeat itself.

I don't actually believe that eventually rim brakes will get phased out from the top end lineups. Maybe initially, but not eventually.. I sincerely hope not. In this case, unlike MTB I don't see the performance improvement to be as large and as this forum shows, there are still lots of rim brake supporters for the type of riding they do. All you need is a manufacturer to cater to that, say a Canyon, and the sales should prove themselves. And manufacturers have to care about making more sales.
Yes, your analysis is correct, this is consumer driven. The pros have fought the corner of rim brakes for three seasons, now it's over to us the consumer. Nobody is saying there shouldn't be a disk option, I think it's good. However if we don't stand up and fight to keep a rim brake option they absolutely will go away. Now look at the MTB industry they've done away with 26 inch wheels, now it looks like the death of 27.5 and everything will be 29. Sure Greg Minnaar at 188cm suits 29er. But for Asians? Really? The industry know that costs are lower when they manufacture one standard (for that season).

This will all play into the hands of the big players, because the small players can't keep up with the changes, the consumer will suffer through extra cost adn compatability options.
Kate Courtney is 162cm and won the XCO World Championship on a 29er. Unless someone has abnormally short legs for their height, they should be able to get a proper hip angle on a 29er.


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A well designed XC 29er can fit a shorter athlete, but are they actaully quicker on it than a 27.5? Also you've got to think about slopestyle, Freeride, enduro and DH.

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