Custom framesets popularity

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Wookski
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Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:51 am

by Wookski

ultimobici wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:22 am
RyanH wrote:Fit is important but I think most people have a latitude of at least 1-2cm in each direction as to what they will adapt to and not get injured on, which gives stock frame sizing a lot of leeway. Further, one frame model doesn't have to appeal to every rider, that's why Trek has H1 and H2 fits and others make endurance geometry and race geometry.

Unless you really know what you're doing and want, and the frame builder can deliver on that, I think custom is overhyped. Personally, I think most large frame manufacturers know more about carbon layup and how a bike will handle in different sizes than almost any custom builder would ever know. Do custom builders spend time testing difference sizes with different sized riders (granted, not many large mfg do either, so that's a different story...)? Are custom builders engineers and they can calculate how strong a given tube is to provide the desired stiffness for the rider's weight and usage? Doubtful.
I take it you don’t sell bikes for a living? At least I hope not.
Have you seen how many rad bikes he’s had? Of course he doesn’t sell bikes for a living :lol:

by Weenie


Nixster
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:30 pm

by Nixster

Custom carbon is a niche within a niche. Most custom bikes are metal.

I'd guess mostly custom buyers are older, have tried out the stock options, know what they want and can't quite find it in a stock frame. While they're about it they go for the fancy paint they've always wanted.

Having said that, Trek is unusual in offering multiple fits on (some of) it's frames. With the majority of carbon frames if you want race geo you get a race (long & low) fit. The assumption most manufacturers seem to make is 10mm off the reach means you want slacker angles and a heavier frame too.

tonytourist
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by tonytourist

RyanH wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:22 pm
Unless you really know what you're doing and want, and the frame builder can deliver on that, I think custom is overhyped.
Naw I need a frame with super short reach and massive stack (plus 60mm stem and 45mm of spacers) because the person who did my bike fit said so!! Plus he said I would be faster with an upright beach cruiser position! I'm so glad I went custom :unbelievable: :smartass: :smartass:

pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

RyanH wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:22 pm
Fit is important but I think most people have a latitude of at least 1-2cm in each direction as to what they will adapt to and not get injured on, which gives stock frame sizing a lot of leeway. Further, one frame model doesn't have to appeal to every rider, that's why Trek has H1 and H2 fits and others make endurance geometry and race geometry.

Unless you really know what you're doing and want, and the frame builder can deliver on that, I think custom is overhyped. Personally, I think most large frame manufacturers know more about carbon layup and how a bike will handle in different sizes than almost any custom builder would ever know. Do custom builders spend time testing difference sizes with different sized riders (granted, not many large mfg do either, so that's a different story...)? Are custom builders engineers and they can calculate how strong a given tube is to provide the desired stiffness for the rider's weight and usage? Doubtful.
Too bad you are not close to me. If you were I would offer to let you borrow and ride my custom bike. I have no doubt that after riding a custom bike your opinion will change.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

It seems Trek went for the cheaper option and went 1 size (H 1.5) , or am i wrong here?

I have a Ti bike, but i wonder if a steel bike would offer more of what i expected from the Ti bike.
I looked at Tred Aracnide A02A OOL. This frameset is available in several versions and price is from 2690-3790 Euro.
Last is with EE brakes direct mount. Due to the design of seat stays, this frameset is only possible with rear brake caliper close to BB.
A bummer for me. Ofourse, this frameset is much more heavy than my Vial EVO.
They guess it's about 1600 grams. Sarto Seta (80Kg + rider) was 900-950 grams.
Personally i would prioritize fit, ride feel, handling and last "looks".

This is the info from: Tred bikes, frameset is Aracnide A02A OOL

Concerning pricing, it varies depending on the finishing, as you can choose from 3 for different graphic/finishing versions.
each frameset includes frame, fork, seatpost, integrated headset and since is direct mount also brakes (Miche DX2)

These are the versions
Buio is dark grey graphics on black frame - 2.690 euros
RedBack is black frame with glossy painted details in red or another custom color - 2.990 euros
Factory is sandblasted steel with doge red painted graphics (or another custom color) - 3.190 euros
OOL is as Factory but in a lighter version since the brakes inlcuded are ee-cycleworks and usually the fork is the TOOT STR as it is lighter) - 3.790 euros

I also like Tsubasa The Crow, but it seems this guy doesn't answer mail anymore!?
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO D
Paduano Racing Fidia
Open *UP*
https://opencycle.com/showcase/the-xplo ... eelsonfire

sfo423
Posts: 423
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:12 pm
Location: San Francisco

by sfo423

Since we are on custom builder topic; who are some of the more 'affordable' custom carbon builders ....preferrably in the US. I don't think I see any that do farmes for <$4k.

My dims leave me very few off the shelf options (unless i want to ride a frankenbike).

RyanH
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by RyanH

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:20 am
Too bad you are not close to me. If you were I would offer to let you borrow and ride my custom bike. I have no doubt that after riding a custom bike your opinion will change.
You do remember that I've had two Crumptons and an Indy Fab Crown Jewel, right? The Wilier was hands down better than all of them in nearly every respect. The T1sl is still my ideal blend of comfort and stiffness for 365 day, year around riding ranging from "I barely want to get on the bike" to "I'm going to drop everyone on this ride or drop myself in the process." I couldn't imagine needing or having more comfort and any less stiff and I'd be yearning for carbon.

With that being said, it could just be that the T1sl is built for someone like me. If I wanted stiffer (or less) I'd have to go custom BUT how would I ever go about quantifying the level of stiffness and comfort the T1sl provides right now and fine tune it from there and be certain that the builder would deliver on that? I'd bet confirmation bias plays a big role in people's belief that their custom bike is better than an off the shelf bike (barring those that have special geometry needs).

Hexsense
Posts: 562
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

RussellS wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:47 pm

Is it? A place called Jack Kane Custom Racing Bicycles requires a $1000 deposit to paint a frame. A place called Horse Brand requires a $400 deposit to paint a frame. Guessing the deposits don't even cover the cost of repainting. More money is required to get your bike back after repainting. Co-Motion charges $200 for one custom color paint job on a new bike. Waterford charges $700 to repaint a frame. Plus $125 for the fork.
Now i felt that $80 up charge to paint my entire Chinese carbon fiber frame, fork and seatpost to my submitted design picture a steal. I have to admit though, my design only use 3 colors, 2sides x2places with wording decals, and have nothing overly complex or highly detailed.
No wonder, China hit USA market so hard. It's insane to see how expensive labour cost, up charge, and mark up in USA when compare to how cheap Chinese can do.

spdntrxi
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

RyanH wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:58 pm
I'd bet confirmation bias plays a big role in people's belief that their custom bike is better than an off the shelf bike (barring those that have special geometry needs).
I bet it's this too... from someone who is on his second Parlee Z-Zero.. First one custom. second not.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

Hexsense wrote:No wonder, China hit USA market so hard. It's insane to see how expensive labour cost, up charge, and mark up in USA when compare to how cheap Chinese can do.
Yes it is no wonder when they’ve not paid for the IP.


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AJS914
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I think most people that spend $5K on a frameset will partly convince themselves that it is the greatest bike ever just because they wrote such a large check.

I think the idea of a custom frame could be greatly improved upon. A custom frame could have the front/back weight balanced precisely. One could choose the steering geometry they want for their intended use. The flex of a frame (or stiffness) could be dialed in based on the rider. (Remember that non-scientific study that showed that some people climed faster on a flexier bike?)

As in the old days, the end result of a custom frame is based on the builder's experience with previous customers. It's more art than science. Those of us that have ridden a lot of bikes probably always remember a few that were magical and we probably don't even know why we felt that way about them.

I think the problem is that we don't have enough science in these areas and the typical small builder will never have the resources to pull this off. Some day companies like Specialized may have done the research and will have robots custom fabricate one off high end bikes based on perameters dialed into the fabrication machine.

guyc
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by guyc

Or perhaps a lot of people know all of that but just really like the idea of a one-off built for them.

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wheelsONfire
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Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

Custom may aswell come down to ideas. You may want certain features from a bike, but the geo is not available.
You may want a 30mm axle crankset, many frames are not made for that, which is nothing but idiotic.
You possibly can never get the tech as ex Madones seatpost, the tried and tested aero shapes bla bla.

Risk is if a builder loves soft rides, you tell him you want stiff,.. does he know what you mean?
It's a risk ordering custom, i know that. It's not like they exchange your bike and build a new if you don't like it.
It's not even easy knowing if you'd like a new steel bike or simply regret that and wish you went carbon.
I admit that it's far too little hands on experience.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO D
Paduano Racing Fidia
Open *UP*
https://opencycle.com/showcase/the-xplo ... eelsonfire

guyc
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by guyc

Flip question.

How many people who drop £3k+ on a factory frame actually get to test it beforehand. Over here it’s often pretty hard to get a decent, meaningful ride in a lot of shops.

I know a lot of people who buy Madones etc without any sort of test ride.

by Weenie


Hexsense
Posts: 562
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

ultimobici wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:24 pm
Hexsense wrote:No wonder, China hit USA market so hard. It's insane to see how expensive labour cost, up charge, and mark up in USA when compare to how cheap Chinese can do.
Yes it is no wonder when they’ve not paid for the IP.

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Before this continue to go off rail from the topic,
Okay well, lets narrow it down to context that is solely labour cost and not IP/tech related then. For those case of counterfeit/IP violation you are right. But I don't think painting a frameset according to my sketch design require any IP to do so. It's just that custom paint in China is so much cheaper than custom paint somewhere else probably due to labour. I can say the paint quality is not as neat as boutique paintshop. But for fraction of the price and got a customized painting, it's a fine deal.


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