Custom framesets popularity

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
shotgun
Posts: 208
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by shotgun

I change frames quite often (1 a year a least), and don't feel any affinity to them. I did the custom route because I wanted something more personal, something exclusive to me. Yeah, materials, technology, etc has some merit but the feeling that it's unique to my requirements is my top reason.
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2018 Giant TCR Advance SL0 Disc
2017 Festka Scalatore
1989 Battaglin Roche
1985 Alan Carbonio

by Weenie


BagelMaster
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by BagelMaster

ernestkus wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:23 am
I'd say from a 'need' standpoint, if you have problem with your fitting, it's probably worth to go custom. Otherwise, I'm sure you can find something for your need. As for paint, I'm sure you can find someone who can paint them as you like

The downside of buying branded bike is you will constantly exposed with new model, new colorway, new tech, etc. So what is brand new today, next year probably looks like junk. And not to mention plenty of people have the same bike as you

As for custom carbon bike, what I see most of the builder use tube to tube construction. Basicly the buy long tubes, cut them to desired length, glue them to carbon lugs. They don't have a custom mold, except parlee or guru I think, and then they apply finishing touch, either it's more carbon layer, or some paint. Performance wise I dont think it will be better than brand name carbon bike, considering their R&D and ability to make custom carbon mold
Could you link to some builders who do that tube-to-tube construction? That's curious -- I've never seen a custom carbon frame like that other than ones that are old and lugged with aluminium. I'd like to see a modern all-carbon take on that!

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

ernestkus wrote:I'd say from a 'need' standpoint, if you have problem with your fitting, it's probably worth to go custom. Otherwise, I'm sure you can find something for your need. As for paint, I'm sure you can find someone who can paint them as you like

The downside of buying branded bike is you will constantly exposed with new model, new colorway, new tech, etc. So what is brand new today, next year probably looks like junk. And not to mention plenty of people have the same bike as you

As for custom carbon bike, what I see most of the builder use tube to tube construction. Basicly the buy long tubes, cut them to desired length, glue them to carbon lugs. They don't have a custom mold, except parlee or guru I think, and then they apply finishing touch, either it's more carbon layer, or some paint. Performance wise I dont think it will be better than brand name carbon bike, considering their R&D and ability to make custom carbon mold
Evidently you know very little about tube to tube. Yes the tubes are cut to length, but that is only to trim a small amount. Also the tubes are chosen in a similar way to traditional steel frame-building.


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guyc
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by guyc

RussellS wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:47 pm
guyc wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:50 pm
It’s a fair bit cheaper to paint a bike than a house or a car. What a bizarre analogy.
Is it? A place called Jack Kane Custom Racing Bicycles requires a $1000 deposit to paint a frame. A place called Horse Brand requires a $400 deposit to paint a frame. Guessing the deposits don't even cover the cost of repainting. More money is required to get your bike back after repainting. Co-Motion charges $200 for one custom color paint job on a new bike. Waterford charges $700 to repaint a frame. Plus $125 for the fork. In the past I recall seeing commercials from Maaco I think that offered to repaint your car for $99. And I suspect if I called up any of the local body shops in town I could get a car painted for a couple hundred. Any color I wanted. House painting requires about 20 gallons of paint. $10-25 per gallon. Haven't looked at house painting recently. But I think you could find people to paint a single story house for a few hundred dollars.

So its cheaper to repaint a house or car than a bike. So the quiestion reamins, WHY aren't the people clamoring for custom painted bikes repainting their cars and houses? Those items stand out more than a bike and they could get a lot more attention for cheaper. Why aren't they doing it if they believe what they wrote?
Perhaps, just perhaps, they want a custom paint job on their bikes and aren't bothered about the house or car. I'm really not sure why you're struggling with this.

2old4this
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Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:26 am

by 2old4this

BagelMaster wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:29 am
Could you link to some builders who do that tube-to-tube construction? That's curious -- I've never seen a custom carbon frame like that other than ones that are old and lugged with aluminium. I'd like to see a modern all-carbon take on that!
Calfee does tube to tube with carbon lugs: https://calfeedesign.com/
Excellent custom paint job as well.

Arganout does full custom carbon, no off the shelf tubes: https://argonautcycles.com/

reedplayer
Posts: 358
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:10 am

by reedplayer

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:00 pm
Another consideration going custom is the rider’s weight. As a small rider I find that factory built bikes are too stiff and ride uncomfortably, even on the smaller sized frames. Going custom allows the builder to select the specific tubing to match the rider’s weight and riding style. Factory built bikes are overbuilt because they have to assume the worst scenario in terms of a rider’s weight. ...... Image
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thats in principle correct for shure, but there are although mass manufacturers, considering this point and offering frames with tube diameters/characteristics adapted to specific frame sizes/rider weights (specialized tarmac, focus izalco max, and maybe a few more).

nevertheless, if i d be willing to spend +/- 4000.- euro for a frameset, i would always prefer custom. i prefer classical simple frame shape with round, straight tubes (parlee, crumpton, festka..), no aero embellishment and no fantasy forms, weird headtubes, twirls here and there, and custom builders seem the last ones offering such.

furthermore production process´and cost are much more transparent, because custom builders dont take the detour via china. 3000.- 3500.-, 4000.- euro for a frameset being manufactured in china seems way too expensive to me!

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

BagelMaster wrote:
ernestkus wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:23 am
I'd say from a 'need' standpoint, if you have problem with your fitting, it's probably worth to go custom. Otherwise, I'm sure you can find something for your need. As for paint, I'm sure you can find someone who can paint them as you like

The downside of buying branded bike is you will constantly exposed with new model, new colorway, new tech, etc. So what is brand new today, next year probably looks like junk. And not to mention plenty of people have the same bike as you

As for custom carbon bike, what I see most of the builder use tube to tube construction. Basicly the buy long tubes, cut them to desired length, glue them to carbon lugs. They don't have a custom mold, except parlee or guru I think, and then they apply finishing touch, either it's more carbon layer, or some paint. Performance wise I dont think it will be better than brand name carbon bike, considering their R&D and ability to make custom carbon mold
Could you link to some builders who do that tube-to-tube construction? That's curious -- I've never seen a custom carbon frame like that other than ones that are old and lugged with aluminium. I'd like to see a modern all-carbon take on that!
Sarto, De Anima, Crumpton all do tube to tube. I know for a fact that De Anima have their tubes make to their specifications.

Lugs are not tube to tube. Lugged construction is no different to traditional steel frame construction. Tube to tube is more like fillet brazing. It allows infinite variation of angles, whereas carbon or alloy lugs are limited.


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guyc
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by guyc

https://www.filamentbikes.com are (I think) tube to tube.

joejack951
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Location: Wilmington, DE

by joejack951

RussellS wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:47 pm
guyc wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:50 pm
It’s a fair bit cheaper to paint a bike than a house or a car. What a bizarre analogy.
Is it? A place called Jack Kane Custom Racing Bicycles requires a $1000 deposit to paint a frame. A place called Horse Brand requires a $400 deposit to paint a frame. Guessing the deposits don't even cover the cost of repainting. More money is required to get your bike back after repainting. Co-Motion charges $200 for one custom color paint job on a new bike. Waterford charges $700 to repaint a frame. Plus $125 for the fork. In the past I recall seeing commercials from Maaco I think that offered to repaint your car for $99. And I suspect if I called up any of the local body shops in town I could get a car painted for a couple hundred. Any color I wanted. House painting requires about 20 gallons of paint. $10-25 per gallon. Haven't looked at house painting recently. But I think you could find people to paint a single story house for a few hundred dollars.

So its cheaper to repaint a house or car than a bike. So the quiestion reamins, WHY aren't the people clamoring for custom painted bikes repainting their cars and houses? Those items stand out more than a bike and they could get a lot more attention for cheaper. Why aren't they doing it if they believe what they wrote?
Are you suggesting that people don't customize their houses or cars? Likewise, are you suggesting that the only option for having a car painted is a $99 Maaco job (or bottom-of-the-barrel body shop repaint) while the only option for bikes is a high-end repaint by a respected builder?

While I personally haven't painted a house, I have had a three story townhouse re-sided to the tune of many thousands of dollars. I have also recently had a side mirror cover painted to the tune of 70% of the cost of your proposed full-car repaint. Yes, one tiny plastic piece of a car cost me $70 to have painted. And I paid it without much thought. A friend was looking at having his Porsche 951 repainted a few years back and was quoted $14,000 from a body shop known for their paintwork. He declined, mainly because that specific car simply isn't worth that sort of investment. Plenty of other cars would be, though.

I'm also in the middle of nearly a full-house renovation, lots of custom work being done but all interior, the cost of which puts any custom bike to complete shame (not bragging, just noting how cheap even full custom bike stuff is whereas how expensive customizing the larger items in life can be).

Robbyville
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by Robbyville

Custom for the most part is a perfectly good example of un-needed toys for most of us. As mentioned, many stock bikes are perfectly good with a few changes. In my case I have always wanted a custom bike. Something built perfectly for me with aesthetically pleasing proportions vs. having to go with a shorter stem than normal, sloping top tubes, etc. Couple that with a good fitting, upgrades that I wanted (carbon seat tube, DI2 wiring, etc), and stunning paint based on my whims and you get a lovely bike that rides beautifully and looks stunning (at least to me). In the end, the price as I built it was only a little higher than a comparably set up Pinarelly F10 or Colnago C64. Is that still stupid expensive considering you can get 2 similarly equipped bikes for the same price via many other bike companies? Sure it is but that's why we have choices. For me it was well worth it for the finished product, it's the only bike I ride and one of my few vices. I don't custom paint my car because I'm not a car guy but if I was I'm sure I would!

Wookski
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by Wookski

Please stop with the bike vs. car vs. home references, they’re just silly. Custom bikes are great for those who want specific characteristics or just something they won’t see at the local park up (like anotger tarmac or ss evo, yawn). There are plenty of pitfalls so being engaged in the process is important. Many see the process and waiting as an unnecessary inconvenience vs. the instant sugar rush of purchasing a factory bike.

Zakalwe
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by Zakalwe

I don’t think fit is anywhere near as much advantage to custom frames as it with eg. custom suits or shoes where fit is paramount, but the same appeal applies where you’re investing in a craftsman, their years of building their skillset and their time given to making you something entirely unique and to your requirements. It’s the most sincere form of patronage, really.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

Zakalwe wrote:I don’t think fit is anywhere near as much advantage to custom frames as it with eg. custom suits or shoes where fit is paramount, but the same appeal applies where you’re investing in a craftsman, their years of building their skillset and their time given to making you something entirely unique and to your requirements. It’s the most sincere form of patronage, really.
Fit on a bike is just as important, if not more so, as a suit or pair of shoes. Many top end road bikes were made to measure until giant decided three sizes were all anyone “needed”.



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RyanH
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by RyanH

Fit is important but I think most people have a latitude of at least 1-2cm in each direction as to what they will adapt to and not get injured on, which gives stock frame sizing a lot of leeway. Further, one frame model doesn't have to appeal to every rider, that's why Trek has H1 and H2 fits and others make endurance geometry and race geometry.

Unless you really know what you're doing and want, and the frame builder can deliver on that, I think custom is overhyped. Personally, I think most large frame manufacturers know more about carbon layup and how a bike will handle in different sizes than almost any custom builder would ever know. Do custom builders spend time testing difference sizes with different sized riders (granted, not many large mfg do either, so that's a different story...)? Are custom builders engineers and they can calculate how strong a given tube is to provide the desired stiffness for the rider's weight and usage? Doubtful.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

RyanH wrote:Fit is important but I think most people have a latitude of at least 1-2cm in each direction as to what they will adapt to and not get injured on, which gives stock frame sizing a lot of leeway. Further, one frame model doesn't have to appeal to every rider, that's why Trek has H1 and H2 fits and others make endurance geometry and race geometry.

Unless you really know what you're doing and want, and the frame builder can deliver on that, I think custom is overhyped. Personally, I think most large frame manufacturers know more about carbon layup and how a bike will handle in different sizes than almost any custom builder would ever know. Do custom builders spend time testing difference sizes with different sized riders (granted, not many large mfg do either, so that's a different story...)? Are custom builders engineers and they can calculate how strong a given tube is to provide the desired stiffness for the rider's weight and usage? Doubtful.
I take it you don’t sell bikes for a living? At least I hope not.


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by Weenie


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