Pioneer vs 4diiii dual-sided powermeter

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
wintershade
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

Hi --

I need to change the crank length on a new TT bike, so I figure I may as well use this opportunity to add crank-based power so I'm not constantly moving my pedals back-and-forth (which gets annoying).

I have ruled out Stages due to QC/dropout issues, and SRM due to price, lack of bluetooth, and lack of user-battery changes. So it's down to Pioneer and 4iiii. Any advice here?

As I see it, main advantages of Pioneer are available sooner (4iiii apparently I have to send in crank and it takes 4 weeks) and real-time pedal analysis if I get Pioneer's head unit (unlikely).

Main advantages of 4iiii are: Better looking (no big ugly purple Pioneer thing on crank), accelerometer based so no need for magnets, smaller/slimmer sensors (maybe?). All these things seem more impt, so is it worth waiting for.

But biggest question is which is more relaiable?

ParisCarbon
Posts: 1371
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:39 am
Location: Winnipeg Canada

by ParisCarbon

Have you considered power2max at all? NGs are accurate to 1% like SRM.. Movistar and UAE are riding them, and as far as i know the FSA powerbox is P2max. Also p2max support is awesome.. any questions Ive asked are answered literally within an hour or less during business time!

by Weenie


wintershade
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

Yes, I considered power2max for my Campy road bike but opted for pedals instead to have more options when I travel.

This will be for a DuraAce TT bike, and I'd like to stick with DuraAce crank arms so all the metal matches. I don't think I'd want to put the FSA crank arms on this bike.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3576
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I am not aware of any QC or dropout issues with the Gen2 or later Stages PMs. Mine has been solid since they gave me a free update to the Gen2 enclosure (out of warranty.)

You say BT is important, but the Pioneer doesn’t support BT.

4iiii power meters have a pretty bad tendency to record huge spikes. Like 6000w spikes.

New cranks + Favero Assioma Duos are basically the same price as an dual-sided crank-based solution.

wintershade
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

Wow, how did I miss the fact that Pioneer doesn't support Bluetooth! Thanks Tobin. You just saved me a return. Some good intel on 4iiii. The one other negative I seem to have read about 4iii is it doesn't handle tempature fluctations well -- which is real problem in teh Bay Area where it can be 10 degrees colder on opposite sides of the road....

What about Stages Gen3, which just appears to have come out?

Yeah, new cranks + Assioma Duos was my starting point. They're working great on my road bike. I was thinking for the TT bike though, I might want to go with Keo Blade pedals for more AERO! The little pods also look ugly.....

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3576
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Or wet and rainy at the top of Skyline for no reason.

spdntrxi
Posts: 2770
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

watching this thread... because I was thinking about a 4iiii NDS arm on my gravel bike. Once I put on the XTR Race pedels ofcourse I lose my existing powermeter (vector3) such is life.

Also in the Bay Area.. so those damn micro-climates I dont wanna be doing zero offset a bunch of times.

Boshk
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:59 am

by Boshk

Quarq Dfour91 with DA rings? but....it won't be a perfect match with the rest of your DA
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GothicCastle
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:52 am

by GothicCastle

I’ve had a dual-side Pioneer meter on one bike since 2015 with zero problems. I do have the head unit, which you really need for firmware updates, in addition to the pedal dynamics. I don’t believe you need the magnets on a Pioneer unit unless you use the pedal dynamics. I’d consider Pioneer’s lack of Bluetooth a disadvantage, if just for the lack of a phone app to change configuration. I’m surprised they haven’t updated the units.

I also have a stages gen 3 dual-side, also problem free. The issues with weak signals were resolved with the gen 3 units.

wintershade
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

GothicCastle wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:40 am
I’ve had a dual-side Pioneer meter on one bike since 2015 with zero problems. I do have the head unit, which you really need for firmware updates, in addition to the pedal dynamics. I don’t believe you need the magnets on a Pioneer unit unless you use the pedal dynamics. I’d consider Pioneer’s lack of Bluetooth a disadvantage, if just for the lack of a phone app to change configuration. I’m surprised they haven’t updated the units.

I also have a stages gen 3 dual-side, also problem free. The issues with weak signals were resolved with the gen 3 units.
Between the Stages Gen3 and the Pioneer, which would you buy? I had kind of ruled out Stages, but after talking to a couple sales people they seem to say that the reliabiity issues have really been solved with Gen3. Not sure if he gets paid more commission on Stages or if that's true. Having Bluetooth might be nice, eventhough I don't use it except for firmware updates on my Assiomas. My dealer offered to throw in a free Pioneer head unit, but just more crap to keep track of....

GothicCastle
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:52 am

by GothicCastle

wintershade wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:37 pm
Between the Stages Gen3 and the Pioneer, which would you buy? I had kind of ruled out Stages, but after talking to a couple sales people they seem to say that the reliabiity issues have really been solved with Gen3. Not sure if he gets paid more commission on Stages or if that's true. Having Bluetooth might be nice, eventhough I don't use it except for firmware updates on my Assiomas. My dealer offered to throw in a free Pioneer head unit, but just more crap to keep track of....
They really are functionally equivalent. I was planning to get another pioneer, but I got a good deal on the stages. Both have good reliability.

If you’ll use Zwift on something that doesn’t support an ant+ dongle (like iOS or an AppleTV), advantage Stages. If you have an existing crankset, Pioneer will install a dual side PM on it for ~800 retail; advantage Pioneer. I’d have to measure them, but I think the stages is slightly thinner, which might be important if you have tight clearance around the chainstay. Pioneer’s pedaling dynamics are interesting to look at, but not particularly useful for training.

If I had to choose between the two and they were the exact same price, I’d probably choose the stages, for ease of setup and configuration. Otherwise, I’d choose which ever is less expensive.

JerryLook
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:18 am

by JerryLook

I recently had to return my 4iiii single sided power meter when it quit working after using it for 2 months. Customer support was poor and they responded to my emails at first, then ignored me for 2 weeks. I had to return it to Nashbar and get my money back.

I’ve heard good things about the Pioneer power meters, and they are definitely cheaper than most other options. I’m thinking about trying out a dual sided Pioneer next.

I’ll be watching this thread to see how others are liking the Pioneer units.
2010 Orbea Opal 54cm
6.05kg

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3576
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

The NDS Pioneer crank requires a spacer on my Emonda. The Stages NDS crank does not.

I use Zwift on an Apple TV...a lot... The Pioneer is a non-starter. Yes there are bridging devices like the NPE CABLE, but they add a noticeable amount of latency.

wintershade
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

I think I'm going to go Stages V3. Seems like the winner winner chicken dinner.

by Weenie


spdntrxi
Posts: 2770
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

wintershade wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:09 am
I think I'm going to go Stages V3. Seems like the winner winner chicken dinner.
I agree... now leaning v3 NDS arm for my gravel bike.. My wife V1 stages is going strong still, so I've had good luck.

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