Campy H11 Bleed Problem

[carbonazza]

...I just put piece of paper on one side between rotor and pad...

Thanks for this tip!

I'm sure it will be of great use, especially on my MTB and gravel. Maybe some contamination of the pistons is more probable on these bikes, and cause the imbalance of the pistons more often.

I'm used to clean the pistons, lubricate with silicone gel, and reset them. But the paper trick will be much easier for a quick fix.

I'll even try on my road bike front fork, when "en danseuse" it rubs on one side and never found a way to fix it.

[gorkypl]

If you use the oil level tool and you do a "pull" from the caliper end, to take air out and draw oil in from "higher up" the system, then a push, you shouldn't end up with dis-similar amounts of fluid L and R in the caliper. The oil level tool is centred in the caliper and following this procedure correctly will by place both pistons centred relative to the oil level tool.

Thanks Graeme!
Sorry, it took me a bit longer to respond, but real life came in unexpectedly and I needed to step back for a moment.

So you say that uneven pistons movement (if they still do not move evenly after exercising them) is a valid case for warranty claim?
And another thing - if bubbles enter the system in the last phase of bleeding procedure, when pumping the lever while pulling the bottom syringe - does it indicate a case for warranty claim on the levers?

I am very frustrated by this - just received the bike from the best service in my area, the guys were unable to sort this out, instead they say that Campagnolo is not reliable anymore and just advice to go buy Shimano next time.

On the other hand, I'm very reluctant to take everything out of the bike (which includes cutting hydraulic hoses), send it over to Germany for warranty if I will receive it all back in a month with statement that it works within some Campagnolo tolerances.


Note: this is 12s Record from autumn 2018, not H11.

[graeme_f_k]

If you use the oil level tool and you do a "pull" from the caliper end, to take air out and draw oil in from "higher up" the system, then a push, you shouldn't end up with dis-similar amounts of fluid L and R in the caliper. The oil level tool is centred in the caliper and following this procedure correctly will by place both pistons centred relative to the oil level tool.

Thanks Graeme!
Sorry, it took me a bit longer to respond, but real life came in unexpectedly and I needed to step back for a moment.

So you say that uneven pistons movement (if they still do not move evenly after exercising them) is a valid case for warranty claim?
And another thing - if bubbles enter the system in the last phase of bleeding procedure, when pumping the lever while pulling the bottom syringe - does it indicate a case for warranty claim on the levers?

I am very frustrated by this - just received the bike from the best service in my area, the guys were unable to sort this out, instead they say that Campagnolo is not reliable anymore and just advice to go buy Shimano next time.

On the other hand, I'm very reluctant to take everything out of the bike (which includes cutting hydraulic hoses), send it over to Germany for warranty if I will receive it all back in a month with statement that it works within some Campagnolo tolerances.


Note: this is 12s Record from autumn 2018, not H11.

No problem.

In my turn, sorry for the slow response, I have been out of the UK for three weeks on the road and have not been able to easily access WW. You can always mail me direct at velotechcycling@ain.com and that will generally guarantee you a faster answer!

H11 or 12v, no difference, the hydraulic system is the same.

If, after a careful and correct bleed, the pistons don't centre - i.e. you have a "lazy" piston - then yes, normally that is a warranty claim.

When you do the "pull" the things to be aware of are (and in fact, as with all hydraulic systems, this can also happen on the "push")
1. You can get air leakage into the bleed pipe at the nipple. The o-rings that are used to seal the syringes to the bleed nipple don't always give a perfect seal and although no-one ever mentions it, I have found it well worth replacing them every third or fourth bleed.
2. The lower syringe can also pivot the bleed nipple, opening it too far, which can also let air into the bleed pipe. You have to be careful to maintain the orientation of the lower syringe to the caliper once the bleed nipple is open (max 1/4 turn) - don't let it flop around!

[graeme_f_k]

...I just put piece of paper on one side between rotor and pad...

Thanks for this tip!

I'm sure it will be of great use, especially on my MTB and gravel. Maybe some contamination of the pistons is more probable on these bikes, and cause the imbalance of the pistons more often.

I'm used to clean the pistons, lubricate with silicone gel, and reset them. But the paper trick will be much easier for a quick fix.

I'll even try on my road bike front fork, when "en danseuse" it rubs on one side and never found a way to fix it.

Sometimes the pistons are moving evenly but the caliper is "canted" slightly on the mounts. Very few OEs do it - but the mounts need to be machined dead flat. The paint is almost never flat enough to allow an accurate, square assembly of the caliper to the fork / frame and in the case of a custom steel frame / fork, say, it shouldn't be assumed that the builder has faced the mountings off either.
I've also seen some badly designed flat mount frame fittings where the mounting itself distorts as the mounting bolts are tightened, meaning that the same thing happens.

Workarounds really should not be neccessary ...

[carbonazza]

...Sometimes the pistons are moving evenly but the caliper is "canted" slightly on the mounts...

I didn't see your response before today.
You're definitely right, and I offered myself the tool to face the mounts a couple of months ago.
Much less issues now!

[Vespasianus]

So I have a small update on this.

I think it's indeed impossible to bleed the brakes using the Campy procedure. Every time I pump the brake lever while pulling the bottom syringe, the air bubbles appear in the bottom hose - I think the air might be coming through the master cylider bladder or the caliper o-ring.
However, I spent the whole evening, bleeding using procedures for Hope, Avid and Sram brakes, also unscrewing the caliper and gently tapping and rotating it to eliminate any trapped air. I think I made it to a point where there is no air in the system.

However, the pistons still move in a very uneven way - the one on the side whithout brake hose is much slower.
So I thought I'd take a look at the rear caliper, which was not touched by me at all since being bled by Campagnolo Pro Shop. And guess what - it is even worse. One piston almost does not advance, while the other one (the one on the side with hose) moves easily.

Of course I exercised the 'sticky' one multiple times, cleaned it thoroughly, lubricated with oil - no effect. Even removed the piston completely (by pumping it totally out of the caliper) to clean it. Still it does not move even closely to the other one.

I think I might start a separate topic on this, as quick googling shoeed it's not a Campagnolo-specific problem. However, I have to admit I'm already so tired of this, that I almost start to regret removing fully functional Ultegra Di2 and putting Campagnolo Record on this bike. It is definitely more beautiful, but the amount of troubles almost kill the joy.

Yeah video doesn't work... Man that sucks, thats my experience too, I don’t bother with lazy pistons though, I just hack them with paper trick, they move 0.6mm when pressurized anyway, so move fine after all setup, i’m 100% convinced air comes in at the shifter (not through o-ring at the port) but at the master cylinder inside, the only way to stop introducing is to not press shifter all the way and stop “pumping”, I just finish off by sucking and pulling until you don’t see any bubbles coming out., then close caliper port and see if shifter rock solid, if not then more sucking/pushing, takes me now 10-20 min for full re-bleed.

So, I am in the same boat as you guys. The back brake was really easy to bleed and install. There is no drag and the wheels spins freely. Firm feel and strong power. I pretty much only did the lever pull once of twice and did the push pull until no bubbles were observed.

The front brake is just a disaster. Just massive amounts of contact between the rotor and the pads. I can push the pistons back with the yellow tool and the bleed block - and do the card trick and that works to a certain extent. That is, it centers the system and I can spin the wheel freely after I remove the card but but the minute I pull the lever with the car out, the pads contact the disc and basically stay in contact. Really frustrating. I have 15+ years with mountain bike disc brakes and don’t think I ever spent more than 30 minutes on a bleed. This has been 3 days of hell. I have the pads without the spring.

Part of me is thinking of draining all the oil from the front brake and restarting from scratch but don’t think that will make a difference. However, I am open to any ideas.

[c60rider]

I can only give my disastrous and short lived experience of living with a disc brake bike but but when I built my disc bike, my first and only, I had this exact problem with the front disc. Several things contributed. The first was I discovered the front disc wasn't actually as perfectly straight as campagnolo claimed and was replaced under warranty. The front fork mounts weren't faced off as well as they should have been. The final frustration that I never seemed able to sort was as I was torquing down the mount bolt I would physically see the caliper very slightly move on the mount. I ended up having to hold it in place with one hand, tighten the bolt with the other and eventually I learned to eyeball the spot the caliper needed to be to give clearance for the disc. But even then after the wheel came out and went back in no matter how careful I was this process needed to be redone as I would find the disc slightly rubbed again. This was just a tiny reason amongst many I got shot of the bike and went back to rim brakes on my wet weather bike.

[roadchallenge]

So I have a small update on this.

I think it's indeed impossible to bleed the brakes using the Campy procedure. Every time I pump the brake lever while pulling the bottom syringe, the air bubbles appear in the bottom hose - I think the air might be coming through the master cylider bladder or the caliper o-ring.
However, I spent the whole evening, bleeding using procedures for Hope, Avid and Sram brakes, also unscrewing the caliper and gently tapping and rotating it to eliminate any trapped air. I think I made it to a point where there is no air in the system.

However, the pistons still move in a very uneven way - the one on the side whithout brake hose is much slower.
So I thought I'd take a look at the rear caliper, which was not touched by me at all since being bled by Campagnolo Pro Shop. And guess what - it is even worse. One piston almost does not advance, while the other one (the one on the side with hose) moves easily.

Of course I exercised the 'sticky' one multiple times, cleaned it thoroughly, lubricated with oil - no effect. Even removed the piston completely (by pumping it totally out of the caliper) to clean it. Still it does not move even closely to the other one.

I think I might start a separate topic on this, as quick googling shoeed it's not a Campagnolo-specific problem. However, I have to admit I'm already so tired of this, that I almost start to regret removing fully functional Ultegra Di2 and putting Campagnolo Record on this bike. It is definitely more beautiful, but the amount of troubles almost kill the joy.

Yeah video doesn't work... Man that sucks, thats my experience too, I don’t bother with lazy pistons though, I just hack them with paper trick, they move 0.6mm when pressurized anyway, so move fine after all setup, i’m 100% convinced air comes in at the shifter (not through o-ring at the port) but at the master cylinder inside, the only way to stop introducing is to not press shifter all the way and stop “pumping”, I just finish off by sucking and pulling until you don’t see any bubbles coming out., then close caliper port and see if shifter rock solid, if not then more sucking/pushing, takes me now 10-20 min for full re-bleed.

So, I am in the same boat as you guys. The back brake was really easy to bleed and install. There is no drag and the wheels spins freely. Firm feel and strong power. I pretty much only did the lever pull once of twice and did the push pull until no bubbles were observed.

The front brake is just a disaster. Just massive amounts of contact between the rotor and the pads. I can push the pistons back with the yellow tool and the bleed block - and do the card trick but the minute I remove the card and pull the lever, the pads contact the disc and basically stay in contact. Really frustrating. I have 15+ years with mountain bike disc brakes and don’t think I ever spent more than 30 minutes on a bleed. This has been 3 days of hell. I have the pads without the spring.

Part of me is thinking of draining all the oil from the front brake and restarting from scratch but don’t think that will make a difference. However, I am open to any ideas.

Does it rub on both sides of rotor or just one? Does it rub like constantly or just ping because you rotor slightly untrue? All campy rotors are untrue by the way, thats why it bitch to setup.

Don’t drain you’ve done everything right, Campy discs are bitch, you either need to true your rotor or do this:

1. Backoff pads/pistons to 0 position.
2. Bolt down caliper so it move only sideways no wobble so you can let it clamp on rotor without bending rotor.
3. Squeeze pads on rotor, it should give you pretty even pistons pushed out on each side.
4. Align caliper by eye (put piece of paper on the floor so you can see white space between pads and rotor). Card trick wont work, campy spacing is too small.
5. If it rubs on one side you can rebalance pistons by using tape trick/piece of print paper trick, by resetting pistons to zero and putting tape exactly on the place where it rubs rotor then then squeezing pads, then removing tape and squeezing pads again this will bias pistons around rotor.

Good-luck I once spent 3 days bleeding campy just to realize it sucks air in past the seal when you pull and squeeze lever.

They don't tell you that by getting rid of air in reservoirs you introduce air in the line which you get rid of by push/pull...

Campy always was a bitch to setup with its 0.0005 tolerances, I’m still to this day have no idea how to setup front derailleur, if you follow their videos it rubs the crank.

[roadchallenge]

I can only give my disastrous and short lived experience of living with a disc brake bike but but when I built my disc bike, my first and only, I had this exact problem with the front disc. Several things contributed. The first was I discovered the front disc wasn't actually as perfectly straight as campagnolo claimed and was replaced under warranty. The front fork mounts weren't faced off as well as they should have been. The final frustration that I never seemed able to sort was as I was torquing down the mount bolt I would physically see the caliper very slightly move on the mount. I ended up having to hold it in place with one hand, tighten the bolt with the other and eventually I learned to eyeball the spot the caliper needed to be to give clearance for the disc. But even then after the wheel came out and went back in no matter how careful I was this process needed to be redone as I would find the disc slightly rubbed again. This was just a tiny reason amongst many I got shot of the bike and went back to rim brakes on my wet weather bike.

Yeah i’m done with campy, was big fan for years but it’s just to tedious. Shimano di2 is dialed in and hoods are normal size.

I used to have to file rotor mounts by hand, tool wont do shit. After I had to tighten loosen tighten caliper and take wheel in and out until 10 times to get of that pinging sound because every rotor is crooked.

Basically they lie to you in the video where they magically squeeze loose caliper around rotor then tighten it and it’s all magically aligned...

Kind of makes sense why shimano has such large market share.

[Vespasianus]

So I have a small update on this.

I think it's indeed impossible to bleed the brakes using the Campy procedure. Every time I pump the brake lever while pulling the bottom syringe, the air bubbles appear in the bottom hose - I think the air might be coming through the master cylider bladder or the caliper o-ring.
However, I spent the whole evening, bleeding using procedures for Hope, Avid and Sram brakes, also unscrewing the caliper and gently tapping and rotating it to eliminate any trapped air. I think I made it to a point where there is no air in the system.

However, the pistons still move in a very uneven way - the one on the side whithout brake hose is much slower.
So I thought I'd take a look at the rear caliper, which was not touched by me at all since being bled by Campagnolo Pro Shop. And guess what - it is even worse. One piston almost does not advance, while the other one (the one on the side with hose) moves easily.

Of course I exercised the 'sticky' one multiple times, cleaned it thoroughly, lubricated with oil - no effect. Even removed the piston completely (by pumping it totally out of the caliper) to clean it. Still it does not move even closely to the other one.

I think I might start a separate topic on this, as quick googling shoeed it's not a Campagnolo-specific problem. However, I have to admit I'm already so tired of this, that I almost start to regret removing fully functional Ultegra Di2 and putting Campagnolo Record on this bike. It is definitely more beautiful, but the amount of troubles almost kill the joy.

Yeah video doesn't work... Man that sucks, thats my experience too, I don’t bother with lazy pistons though, I just hack them with paper trick, they move 0.6mm when pressurized anyway, so move fine after all setup, i’m 100% convinced air comes in at the shifter (not through o-ring at the port) but at the master cylinder inside, the only way to stop introducing is to not press shifter all the way and stop “pumping”, I just finish off by sucking and pulling until you don’t see any bubbles coming out., then close caliper port and see if shifter rock solid, if not then more sucking/pushing, takes me now 10-20 min for full re-bleed.

So, I am in the same boat as you guys. The back brake was really easy to bleed and install. There is no drag and the wheels spins freely. Firm feel and strong power. I pretty much only did the lever pull once of twice and did the push pull until no bubbles were observed.

The front brake is just a disaster. Just massive amounts of contact between the rotor and the pads. I can push the pistons back with the yellow tool and the bleed block - and do the card trick but the minute I remove the card and pull the lever, the pads contact the disc and basically stay in contact. Really frustrating. I have 15+ years with mountain bike disc brakes and don’t think I ever spent more than 30 minutes on a bleed. This has been 3 days of hell. I have the pads without the spring.

Part of me is thinking of draining all the oil from the front brake and restarting from scratch but don’t think that will make a difference. However, I am open to any ideas.

Does it rub on both sides of rotor or just one? Does it rub like constantly or just ping because you rotor slightly untrue? All campy rotors are untrue by the way, thats why it bitch to setup.

Don’t drain you’ve done everything right, Campy discs are bitch, you either need to true your rotor or do this:

1. Backoff pads/pistons to 0 position.
2. Bolt down caliper so it move only sideways no wobble so you can let it clamp on rotor without bending rotor.
3. Squeeze pads on rotor, it should give you pretty even pistons pushed out on each side.
4. Align caliper by eye (put piece of paper on the floor so you can see white space between pads and rotor). Card trick wont work, campy spacing is too small.
5. If it rubs on one side you can rebalance pistons by using tape trick/piece of print paper trick, by resetting pistons to zero and putting tape exactly on the place where it rubs rotor then then squeezing pads, then removing tape and squeezing pads again this will bias pistons around rotor.

Good-luck I once spent 3 days bleeding campy just to realize it sucks air in past the seal when you pull and squeeze lever.

They don't tell you that by getting rid of air in reservoirs you introduce air in the line which you get rid of by push/pull...

Campy always was a bitch to setup with its 0.0005 tolerances, I’m still to this day have no idea how to setup front derailleur, if you follow their videos it rubs the crank.

It does not ping but rather the wheel just slows down quickly, as if it has tons of drag. I have pushed the pistons in multiple times to reset without luck. I really do think they need a spring assist to drive the pistons back as it seems they want the pads to be way too close to the rotor.

Crazy thing is that all other parts of this build have gone OK for the most part. Shifting was easy, cable routing was a bit of a pain but once prepped, went smoothly. Rear brake is fine.

Going to bed - messing with this thing for 5 hours is killing me.

[corky]

It is a design problem pertaining to all bicycle disc models currently in my opinion. It relies on the deformation of square edge rubber seals that when the brake lever is released the seals go back to their original shape and thus retract the piston. A very simple (and light ) solution that is Spotty when it comes to road bikes. Also interesting is that Campagnolo changed the design of their pads to a better
Compound and better heat handling backing but also now include springs to help keep the pads apart.....

[corky]

It is a design problem pertaining to all bicycle disc models currently in my opinion. It relies on the deformation of square edge rubber seals that when the brake lever is released the seals go back to their original shape and thus retract the piston. A very simple (and light ) solution that is Spotty when it comes to road bikes. Also interesting is that Campagnolo changed the design of their pads to a better
Compound and better heat handling backing but also now include springs to help keep the pads apart.....

Having said that...... I have been running Campagnolo discs now for 6 months, with no isssues yet.......although haven't had to bleed them either.

[roadchallenge]

It is a design problem pertaining to all bicycle disc models currently in my opinion. It relies on the deformation of square edge rubber seals that when the brake lever is released the seals go back to their original shape and thus retract the piston. A very simple (and light ) solution that is Spotty when it comes to road bikes. Also interesting is that Campagnolo changed the design of their pads to a better
Compound and better heat handling backing but also now include springs to help keep the pads apart.....

Apparently according to one of campy tech, its to dissipate heat better not to actually push pads apart... its doesn’t look like a very strong spring too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vespasianus]

So, it looks like the piston opposite the hose is stuck. I can get it to move if I hold the other piston down and pull the lever but it is slow. Not sure if it is bleed or the caliper.

[gorkypl]

Had the same, think it's both