Would you like to see the mist around Road tubeless cleared? (help me!)

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

Do you guys think you need a manual for setting up and understanding road tubeless?

Poll ended at Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:19 pm

Yes, PLEASE!
24
50%
Nah, already know it.
24
50%
 
Total votes: 48

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Oh, sorry. Is it strictly for singing praise? Let me check the title again.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

by Weenie


shimmeD
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Location: eNZed

by shimmeD

I forgive you, Cal, even though I have no authority/mandate; on the basis that your post is mainly about sealant an arguably essential ingredient of a tubeless set-up.
Yesterday I rode over some stones on the road and my Conti Comp 22mm (re-tubed with latex) sprung a leak. I looked the tub over but couldn't see any obvious point of escape. Nevertheless I removed the valve core and injected some Stans Race via a 5ml syringe 2 or 3x, pumped it up a bit and carried on to my destination approx 5km away. Some 5mths ago I had used the same sealant to fix a pin prick (literally!) so obviously it had dried up. :beerchug:
Less is more.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Yeah, sealant being used just as a flat fix has been awesome for tubular riders. Just remove the valve core, put in about 10-15ml of sealant, let it run to the hole, pump up and carry on. Easy peasy. Extremely rare that an actual spare tire needs to be put on, but I have one just in case.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

The reality around here is tubeless handles punctures from most detritus so flatting is far less common in the first place. My only non-pluggable flats in 3 years on tubeless have been from a defective IRC Formula Pro Light and last Sunday when I was on someone’s wheel in a race and ran over the mother of all potholes. The rider behind me on clinchers flatted instantly while I had a slow leak through a “snakebite” for the next 3 miles.

Your anecdote vs mine. These debates are useless and not in the spirit of the thread. I took this thread to be a compendium of knowledge for those wanting to try tubeless, not a place to spread more FUD.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Calnago
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

It’s not “fud”, it’s reality. Was at a shop today and the guy was admiring my tubulars. Rather than singing praise about tubeless, he instead was saying how tubulars are actually easier than tubeless these days on the road. He said that setting up tubeless for their customers often is a two man job to get the tires on the rim. I couldn’t help but think how this is the hot tubeless topic right now on this forum.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

Eugene you might want to try the 28mm GP5K which has more volume to prevent snakebites. Yes they are not as aero as the 25mm but in my own experience the better rolling resistance of the 28mm trumps the aero disadvantage. I used to run GP4K 23mm (F) and 25mm (R). Now I run 28mm GP5K F&R and I'm a convert on wider tires. They are fast and handle great, even on the somewhat narrow 17C Boras.

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:12 am
Eugene you might want to try the 28mm GP5K which has more volume to prevent snakebites. Yes they are not as aero as the 25mm but in my own experience the better rolling resistance of the 28mm trumps the aero disadvantage. I used to run GP4K 23mm (F) and 25mm (R). Now I run 28mm GP5K F&R and I'm a convert on wider tires. They are fast and handle great, even on the somewhat narrow 17C Boras.

The "snakebite" was really a one time thing and a mistake on my part for not avoiding the pothole. But yes, if I ever do that race again I will be on tires even bigger than 28mm GP5K TLs. I'd probably be on tires measuring 32mm. Those were the worst roads I've ever ridden.

I will say I had just as much difficulty putting the replacement tire on my 5.6 front. Even with levers, getting the final 20cm or so of bead over the hooks required an utterly insane amount of force. I have one remaining unused GP5K and won't be buying them again. Vittoria Corsa TLRs next. If those don't work out, I'll be going back to 11Storms.

spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

^ welcome to NorCal road racing in the boonies.

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pdlpsher1
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Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

Sorry to hear you are having such a bad experience with the GP5K TL. The non-TL GP5K is great and I can't see myself using another tire unless another tire is tested to be faster than the GP5K.

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:48 am
Sorry to hear you are having such a bad experience with the GP5K TL. The non-TL GP5K is great and I can't see myself using another tire unless another tire is tested to be faster than the GP5K.

The rolling resistance is nice, but it just won't matter outside of a TT (I'd probably want to own a TT bike first before I worry about min-maxing tire choices.)

Hexsense
Posts: 766
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

EDIT: might be off topic, sorry.
Not sure if it's placebo or anything, but my rear tire GP5000 slip a little bit more often than GP Force III i used before...
Any verification that their grip is not worse than GP4000sII ?

zefs
Posts: 351
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:40 pm

by zefs

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:31 am
pdlpsher1 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:12 am
Eugene you might want to try the 28mm GP5K which has more volume to prevent snakebites. Yes they are not as aero as the 25mm but in my own experience the better rolling resistance of the 28mm trumps the aero disadvantage. I used to run GP4K 23mm (F) and 25mm (R). Now I run 28mm GP5K F&R and I'm a convert on wider tires. They are fast and handle great, even on the somewhat narrow 17C Boras.
I will say I had just as much difficulty putting the replacement tire on my 5.6 front. Even with levers, getting the final 20cm or so of bead over the hooks required an utterly insane amount of force. I have one remaining unused GP5K and won't be buying them again. Vittoria Corsa TLRs next. If those don't work out, I'll be going back to 11Storms.
That would be a wise choice because in case of needing to put a tube in on the road it wouldn't be fun. Not sure what research/testing Continental did if the tires need so much force to go in (on my setup they didn't mount at all as I mentioned). Let us know how Vittoria's go as I am also looking at those too.

I also might have found the reason people are getting their plugs not stay put, I had a Yksion UST tire which I tried to plug but used the Weldtite MTB kit (insertion tool and plugs) but the tire threads got pierced by using that and I put a patch at home, last week I went for a ride and 20km in the patch got pierced, probably by the pressure and sealant. I tried a GI worm then Weldtite again but they were shooting out at 80psi (I could have used 60psi but wanted to do the ride). I ended up putting a tube in (I usually don't carry one but I was testing the patch fix) and did 65km more, so my point is don't use the MTB ones (tool and plugs) on road tires as there is a chance of damaging the tire).

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

zefs, what's even more weird is after my flat, the GP5K TL bead did pop out from the hooks. With most tubeless tires it takes some force for me to pop the beads out over the bead-lock lip. With the Contis, they seem to pop out very, very easily. Maybe this is why they explicitly warn against using their tires with hookless rims...

The old tire was easier to remove after having stretched a bit. I could easily slide two levers under the bead and pop them back over the hooks. I also easily removed the second bead from the rim by hand.

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DOUG
Posts: 260
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:54 pm

by DOUG

Heres my experience FWIW.

Wheels (all disc)
+++ MCFK Disc Rims. No issues.
+++ Hunt 4 Seasons Disc. No issues.
+ Bontrager Aeolus 5 Disc TLR Disc D3. Had some trouble with the Schwalbe's getting them on and then getting them to seal. Nice rims but not great for setting up tubeless IME. They did eventually work but not without some effort.

Tires
+++ Hutchinson Fusion 5 Performance TLR 11Storm. Went on easily by hand. Mounted easily, sealed straight away. Excellent grip, lightweight (245g each for the 25mm). Have only had them on for about 500km so cannot comment on their longevity but by all accounts should be more durable and and longer wearing the the Schwalbes. Have not found any cuts or signs of damage/wear since they have been fitted. Inflated to about 26.5mm at 80psi on a 17.5mm internal width rim. Have been fantastic so far and can definitely reccomend them over the Schwalbe's

++ Schwalbe Pro One. Very grippy and roll nicely. Lightweight (255g each). Was able get them onto my MCFK rims but had to use tyre levers. Wasnt particularly difficult though, probably easier than a set of GP4000 II's I had on there at one point. Took a bit of effort to get them to seal though, I suspect this is because they were a bit "tight" and hence I had trouble getting it to come out of the valley and up onto the bead. Once sealed they were fine. Very grippy but also prone to cuts and not the longest lasting tyre. I got about 3500km out of a rear before it was time to replace. I only had one puncture that required plugs from a peice of glass (so not the tyre's fault) but Im pretty light at 63kg so YMMV. All other "punctures" self sealed. They blew up pretty big when inflated, about 27.3mm on a 17.5mm internal width rim.

- Bontrager R3 Hard-Case TLR. Difficult to get to seal. Heavy (330g each) and wet grip was questionable. Pretty grippy in the dry and rolled nicely but thats about the only positive thing I can say about them. The front failed at the bead while I was having lunch after a Gran Fondo I had just ridden, 30mins earlier I was bombing down a hill at 80km/h coming into the finishing town, I hasten to think what the consequences would have been if it happened at that moment. They came with the Aeolus 5's I purchased second hand so maybe they were damaged by the previous owner? Seems unlikely as he was a Customer Service agent for Trek Australia and the tyres despite being 2 years old only had about 500km on them and had been stored inside their wheel bags when not in use.

Sealants
++ Orange Seal. I dont use anything else anymore. Seals the best, lasts the longest. Cant reccomend it enough.
- Stans NoTubes Sealant. For road tubeless it's no good. Simply doesnt work at higher pressures. Works fine on a MTB when you're running 20psi and have a lot of air to work with to help form a seal but on the road it just wont seal until you have almost no air left in the tyre if it seals at all.


Rim Tapes
+++ Silca Platinum Tubeless Tape. Best rim tape Ive used to date. Great adhesion, just the right amount of stretch. Lightweight. Can't fault it.
+ Stan's NoTubes / Tesa 4289. Works ok, adhesion and stretch not as good as the Silca though. I have found it works better on the MTB where internal widths (and therefore surface area) is greater.

Valves
+++ Silca Valves. Lightweight, standard cone shape stopper. Come in Black which matches better with carbon rims.
++ Stan's NoTube Valves. Work fine but a bit heavier and like others have found they seem to get clogged a little more easily. Cone shaped stopper

Accessories
+++ DynaPlugs. You need these in your life. As mentioned I only had one bad flat on the Schwalbes and had to use 2 dynaplugs but they then lasted the life of the tyre (about another 2500km) cannot recommend these enough if you're running tubeless.

by Weenie


dim
Posts: 501
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:25 am
Location: Cambridge UK

by dim

DOUG wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:11 pm
Heres my experience FWIW.

Wheels (all disc)
+++ MCFK Disc Rims. No issues.
+++ Hunt 4 Seasons Disc. No issues.
+ Bontrager Aeolus 5 Disc TLR Disc D3. Had some trouble with the Schwalbe's getting them on and then getting them to seal. Nice rims but not great for setting up tubeless IME. They did eventually work but not without some effort.

Tires
+++ Hutchinson Fusion 5 Performance TLR 11Storm. Went on easily by hand. Mounted easily, sealed straight away. Excellent grip, lightweight (245g each for the 25mm). Have only had them on for about 500km so cannot comment on their longevity but by all accounts should be more durable and and longer wearing the the Schwalbes. Have not found any cuts or signs of damage/wear since they have been fitted. Inflated to about 26.5mm at 80psi on a 17.5mm internal width rim. Have been fantastic so far and can definitely reccomend them over the Schwalbe's

++ Schwalbe Pro One. Very grippy and roll nicely. Lightweight (255g each). Was able get them onto my MCFK rims but had to use tyre levers. Wasnt particularly difficult though, probably easier than a set of GP4000 II's I had on there at one point. Took a bit of effort to get them to seal though, I suspect this is because they were a bit "tight" and hence I had trouble getting it to come out of the valley and up onto the bead. Once sealed they were fine. Very grippy but also prone to cuts and not the longest lasting tyre. I got about 3500km out of a rear before it was time to replace. I only had one puncture that required plugs from a peice of glass (so not the tyre's fault) but Im pretty light at 63kg so YMMV. All other "punctures" self sealed. They blew up pretty big when inflated, about 27.3mm on a 17.5mm internal width rim.

- Bontrager R3 Hard-Case TLR. Difficult to get to seal. Heavy (330g each) and wet grip was questionable. Pretty grippy in the dry and rolled nicely but thats about the only positive thing I can say about them. The front failed at the bead while I was having lunch after a Gran Fondo I had just ridden, 30mins earlier I was bombing down a hill at 80km/h coming into the finishing town, I hasten to think what the consequences would have been if it happened at that moment. They came with the Aeolus 5's I purchased second hand so maybe they were damaged by the previous owner? Seems unlikely as he was a Customer Service agent for Trek Australia and the tyres despite being 2 years old only had about 500km on them and had been stored inside their wheel bags when not in use.

Sealants
++ Orange Seal. I dont use anything else anymore. Seals the best, lasts the longest. Cant reccomend it enough.
- Stans NoTubes Sealant. For road tubeless it's no good. Simply doesnt work at higher pressures. Works fine on a MTB when you're running 20psi and have a lot of air to work with to help form a seal but on the road it just wont seal until you have almost no air left in the tyre if it seals at all.


Rim Tapes
+++ Silca Platinum Tubeless Tape. Best rim tape Ive used to date. Great adhesion, just the right amount of stretch. Lightweight. Can't fault it.
+ Stan's NoTubes / Tesa 4289. Works ok, adhesion and stretch not as good as the Silca though. I have found it works better on the MTB where internal widths (and therefore surface area) is greater.

Valves
+++ Silca Valves. Lightweight, standard cone shape stopper. Come in Black which matches better with carbon rims.
++ Stan's NoTube Valves. Work fine but a bit heavier and like others have found they seem to get clogged a little more easily. Cone shaped stopper

Accessories
+++ DynaPlugs. You need these in your life. As mentioned I only had one bad flat on the Schwalbes and had to use 2 dynaplugs but they then lasted the life of the tyre (about another 2500km) cannot recommend these enough if you're running tubeless.
very good post ... thank you ...

I have the Dyna Plugs, I'm now using the Orange sealant (regular version),

I will look closely at the Silca Valves (I'm not sure whats fiited to my rims as the wheelbuilder at my LBS sorted that .... same goes for the rim tape (I'm using DT Swiss at the moment) ....

I'm using the GP500TL tyres but will look closely at the Hutchinson Fusion 5 Performance TLR 11Storm aswell ... I've also used IRC RBCC tubeless before and I will use them again ....

I always like to try new things :thumbup:
Trek Emonda SL6
Miyata One Thousand

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