Would you like to see the mist around Road tubeless cleared? (help me!)

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

Do you guys think you need a manual for setting up and understanding road tubeless?

Poll ended at Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:19 pm

Yes, PLEASE!
24
50%
Nah, already know it.
24
50%
 
Total votes: 48

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Frankie - B
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by Frankie - B

seeing the votes are nearly 50/50 I'm going ahaead with this. We are going to start with the basics, setup and installation.
'Tape was made to wrap your GF's gifts, NOT hold a freakin tire on.'
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by Weenie


AJS914
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by AJS914

I'd like to try road tubeless but I've had such good luck with GP4000s and tubes that I'm hesitant to change. I honestly haven't gotten a flat in 2.5 years. And the last flats were on a pair of Vittoria Open Corsa tires. They felt nice and were supple but I was changing a flat every 500 miles.

I've had generally good experience with tubeless on my MTB and gravel bike. I take I've been lucky with the tire/rim combos I ended up with and I got there by chance.

I'd be hesitant to use road tubeless on group rides for fear of spraying someone behind me with sealant.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

AJS914 wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:17 pm
I'd like to try road tubeless but I've had such good luck with GP4000s and tubes that I'm hesitant to change. I honestly haven't gotten a flat in 2.5 years. And the last flats were on a pair of Vittoria Open Corsa tires. They felt nice and were supple but I was changing a flat every 500 miles.
GP4K SIIs are polarizing tires. ;)

If you ride on decent quality roads, they are fast and aero tires with decent all-around grip. If you ride in damp conditions like Bay Area mornings in the mountains near hillsides with falling rocks/pebbles, the sidewalls will almost definitely fray/tear with a few hundred miles.

My Corsa G+ behaved differently. Very smooth rolling tires. So smooth they felt "slower" than GP4Ks even though they're really about the same in terms of rolling efficiency. I got 1200mi out of a rear before the tread got thin enough to the point where small glass shards would perforate both the tread and casing, puncturing the tubes.

I think sidewall punctures and one-off punctures down the center early in the tread life of a tire are usually "random," but the frequency of complaints by GP4K owners seems more signal than noise. As for the Corsas, 1200mi until chronic puncturing isn't good enough for me. GP4K issues were the primary factor in my switch to tubeless.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

1200 to 1500 miles from corsa is why i stopped using them too. I could not use GP4000II tyres easily when i used tubes because they were too tall for the tight clearances on my sannino which was my main bike at the time. In fact a 25mm GP 4K possibly would not clear the fork crown on my Look.

commendatore
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by commendatore

AJS914 wrote:I'd like to try road tubeless but I've had such good luck with GP4000s and tubes that I'm hesitant to change.
+1. I can probably count every flat I’ve had on my hands. Most of them have been sidewall cuts, but still a rarity.

jlok
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by jlok

Frankie - B wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:56 pm
seeing the votes are nearly 50/50 I'm going ahaead with this. We are going to start with the basics, setup and installation.
Much appreciated. I'd want to update my tubeless knowledge from your work.
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Component choices are crucial, figured I'd list my experiences.

Wheels
++ Zipp 202 NSW Tubeless Disc ... flawless set-up.
+ ENVE SES 5.6 Disc ... one rim is slightly temperamental for initial seating/seal.
~ Alto CCX40 Disc ... overweight, tall hookless design slightly harder to mount tires.
~ Velocity Aileron ... wide alloy rims, at zero pressure the tire beads don't stay in place, the rim compresses at higher pressures (reducing spoke tension somewhat)

Tires
++ Hutchinson Fusion 5 Performance TLR 11Storm ... install/remove by hand, medium tread, fairly wide
++ Mavic Yksion Pro UST ... install/remove by hand, thin/medium tread, fairly wide
+ Hutchinson Fusion 5 Galactik TLR 11Storm ... install/remove by hand, superlight, thin tread, medium size
+ Zipp Tangente Speed RT ... install/remove by hand, thin/medium tread, medium/narrow size
+ Schwalbe Pro One ... install by hand, remove with levers, very light, fast, punctures easily (still seals,) very wide
? IRC Formula Pro Light Tubeless ... more difficult to install by hand, remove with levers, seemed plush and fast, medium/wide, failed after 200mi just above the kevlar bead

Sealants
++ Orange Seal ... seals best, least messy, stays liquid for months.
-- Stan's NoTubes ... poor performance at road pressures, boogers/stanimals, dries out.
-- Slime STR ... a sticky, gluelike mess.

Rim Tapes
++ Green Powder Coating Masking Tape ... generic tape I bought off Amazon, good adhesion, medium stretch, no residue on removal, thin.
+ Stan's NoTubes / Tesa 4289 ... Tesa 4289 has okay adhesion, minimal/medium stretch, no residue on removal, thin/medium thickness.
+ Velocity Velotape / 3M 8898 ... good adhesion, medium/significant stretch, no residue on removal, very thin, might split when you punch out the valve hole.
-- Kapton Tape ... bad ahesion, very stretchy, no residue on removal, extremely thin, wrinkles and shifts.

Valves
++ Speed Evolution Valves ... assorted colors, lightweight
++ Silca Valves ... lightweight, standard cone shape stopper
+ ENVE Valves ... lightweight, channel/rectangular shape stopper, preference for cone shape.
+ Stan's NoTube Valves ... work ok, they seem to get clogged a little more easily, cone shaped stopper

Accessories
++ DynaPlugs ... these easy to use rubber plugs take care of most unsealed punctures.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:42 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Frankie - B
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by Frankie - B

Hey Tobin, that is a great addition. Thanks.
'Tape was made to wrap your GF's gifts, NOT hold a freakin tire on.'
Please follow me on Instagram

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Frankie - B
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by Frankie - B

Well, it took some time, but the first post is up! Please let me know what you think in the comments. Thanks
'Tape was made to wrap your GF's gifts, NOT hold a freakin tire on.'
Please follow me on Instagram

Basher74
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by Basher74

Agree with the OP. tubeless will be the norm within 3 years.

I add glitter to my sealant to fill any holes, even different colour glitter for different coloured bikes (wouldn’t want to clash) :D

spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:22 am
Component choices are crucial, figured I'd list my experiences.
Wheels
Enve 2.2 .. hard to deal with using Schwalbe Pro-One
Enve 7.8 .. same as above same tires.
Enve 5.6 disc.. hard but I little easier then the above same tires
Enve 4.5AR.. easiest of the bunch with same tires
HED Andennes LT .... stupid easy .. same tires

Tires
+ Schwalbe Pro One ... only tubeless I have experience with so far.. fast but cut easy on the first few sets. I have about 800 miles on the current set which is the most I have ever gotten. Were only easy on the Enve 4.5AR to mount.


Sealants
++ Orange Seal ... I will only use this.


Rim Tapes

+ Stan's NoTubes - seems to be ok, only used it when I didn't have the below or came with second hand wheelsets
++ Silca -- much preferred

Valves
++ Silca Valves ... lightweight, standard cone shape stopper
+ ENVE Valves ... lightweight, channel/rectangular shape stopper, preference for cone shape.

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ms6073
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by ms6073

Wheels
Nox Composites Falcor 36D .. relatively easy with using Schwalbe Pro-One (700 x 25C), MicroSkin, TL Easy
Nox Composites Citico Disc Gravel/CX .. very hard - required tire jack to install Schwalbe G-One Allround (700 x 38C), MicroSkin, TL Easy

Sealants
Orange Seal Endurance .. I also will only use this due to high temps and humidity.
Effetto Mariposa Caffelatex .. Very quick to seal punctures in road tubeless (and tubular) but also the quickest to evaporate when temperatures and humidity climb thus requiring bi-monthly top offs.

Rim Tapes
Schwalbe .. good adhesion when stretched tight, and no residue upon removal but very hard to find in US
DT Swiss .. good adhesion when stretched tight, with little to no residue upon removal; probably the same manufacturer as many others with different graphics

Valves
Milkit .. 55 mm valves - unique design aides in preventing sealant from clogging valve/core but can be fiddly when temps dip near freezing.
Orange Seal .. lightweight, channel/rectangular shape stopper, preference for cone shape.
American Classic .. lightweight, donnut o-ring and regular o-ring as well as rim flange aide in sealing, but short length makes them suitable only for shallow rims.
Michael - The Anaerobic Threshold is neither...

jahknob
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by jahknob

I've had a good go at trying to run road tubeless over the past two years. I like the road feel and can't disagree that these run "fast" compared to most standard tyre/tube & tubular set-ups. No puncture experiences to date, but in my case this is probably a good thing.

To date, I've been using only Schwalbe Pro One 25mm tubeless tyres on Rolf Prima Vigor wheels (2015 tubeless-compatible cyclocross version), using Effetto Mariposa CafeLatex and narrow tape (green), then the yellow Tesa tape (also narrow).

So, although my on-road experience is good, my issues with tubeless relate to set-up, repair and storage. Any tips and info on these issues would be greatly appreciated.

With respect to set-up, the biggest issue is with getting the tyres on and off the rim. I have been using the Var tyre tool to assist. With soap and water, I can get the job done at home.

The bigger and related issue is that if I was to have a puncture out on the road that wouldn't seal (especially on a cold and wet evening), I'm not sure I could get the tyre off and back on to put an inner tube in place. I have bought a set of the plugs/insertion tool, but have yet to try - hopefully this would allow me to fix any puncture that sealant wouldn't deal with out on the road..?

My biggest issue with tubeless is related to bike storage; for a good part of the winter months, my "good" road bike with the tubeless wheels is in storage. Unlike wheels using tubs and latex tubes, which just need to be occasionally pumped up (when I notice/remember), the tubeless wheels don't stay inflated for long and once past a couple of weeks, the bead always unseats and leaks sealant all over the floor. And the valves tend to get blocked by the sealant too.

Actually, this isn't strictly true - it's always one wheel that deflates, and the other one stays inflated for much longer. I have re-done the rim strip and tyre installation numerous times and what I find is that the rim tape is always wrinkled and moved from the rim edges at several points around the rim on both wheels. This doesn't seem to be specifically at the point where the final tyre bead goes on. Is the tape supposed to be wide enough to ride up along the side of the rim so the tyre bead presses the tape against the rim, or is the tyre bead supposed to sit above the tape on the rim wall?

I changed from the Effetto Mariposa tape to Tesa. Didn't make much difference to the wrinkling, although the Tesa tape was tackier. Is there a trick to making sure the tape remains flat and unwrinkled during tyre installation? As it stands, I always do two layers of tape. I am guessing that the tape getting wrinkled is somehow causing an imperfect seal somewhere, hence the air loss. Also, getting the Schwalbe Pro One tubeless tyres to seat on the bead has always been problematic - usually have to use an air reservoir, then continue to pump by hand up to around 150-160PSI to get the tyres to seat properly, then can reduce pressure to the useable range. This doesn't seem right, wondering if it's more likely to be a problem with the rims?

Have changed to using the Milkit valves, which has helped with preventing the valves getting clogged. I'm pretty sure that the problem isn't the valves. Is there a difference between the tyres that are tubeless-ready and tubeless-compatible? As well as the Schwalbe's, I've also got some Vittoria Corsa Speed 23mm tubeless tyres that are untried (but for "best" days only). Have put these on to a (different) set of Rolf Prima Vigor road wheels and I can get these to pump up without using a reservoir.

Was interested in trying out a set of the top Hutchinsons, but am confused between the two variants - tubeless and tubeless-compatible. One is lighter that the other. Which one to use for best performance?

To summarise - would like recommendations for best sealant to use for longevity (have bought the Orange, but not used yet), tips for taping and installing to get best possible seal, troubleshooting tips to avoid obvious air leakage, best tyres for pure performance (low CRR) and one last point - in worst case scenario, what's likely to happen in a bad puncture at speed? Tyre deflates suddenly, come off or stays on rim, controllable or not? Is safety of tubs still a reason why these are still preferred over tubeless/clincher options?

Will follow this thread with interest..

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

I have none of your issues.

1) Pick the right tires and they will go on/off most rims by hand easily. Hutchinson and Mavic for example.
2) My valves don’t clog. I always inflate them at the 8 o’clock or 4 o’clock position.
3) The beads never unseat on my rims during long term storage (where they have been deflated for months)
4) If the fairly rigid Tesa tape is wrinkling/shifting for you, then you aren’t pulling it tight enough.
5) Always buy the TLR version of a Hutchinson tire.
6) The best tape is the green powder coating tape (3M 8992 or generic.) The best sealant is Orange Seal.

mattr
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by mattr

Scrub the inside of the tyre before fitting, get rid of any release agent from the molding process, your tyres will deflate FAR slower as the sealant will be able to wet the inside of the tyre far more thoroughly (get into all the tiny holes as well).

by Weenie


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