Tour Mag. disc brake vs. rim brake test

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Paging dvq so he can confirm the story of how his ENVE SES 6.7s delaminated/bubbled after 3 years and approximately 25000mi.

dvq weighs ~150lbs, climbs a lot and is a skilled descender. Even in perfect dry conditions, I would end up passing him down the steepest 12-15% technical descents when he was still on rim brakes. I don’t pass him now that he’s swapped his rim-brake SSEvo for a disc Venge ViAS.

You really have to be on the ragged edge, nearly drifting wide off the road to realize how much much more confidence the feel and consistency of disc-brakes gives you. The trail-braking on a disc bike is sublime. There is no comparison and it doesn’t really matter what a “brake power” test indicates.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

by Weenie


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mpulsiv
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by mpulsiv

hannawald wrote:So it seems disc brake bikes are cheaper, you dont have to buy n+1 rain bike:)
Hmmm...I don’t think you get the point but OK.
Hypothetically, take your 5k race machine with 3k wheels to enjoy your wet ride. I don’t remember seeing a wise man do that. Foul-weather take toll on your components. Men don’t buy Porsche for rainy commutes, right?
Again, I’m not here to stir up the debate but if you think that your disc brakes is so amazing, kudos to you. Since 1903, cyclists have been racing on rim brakes. Now we have new kids on the block proving us wrong and pushing eBike sales.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

I can think of a lot of stuff from the 1900s that I’m grateful were replaced by better technology. It’s a wonder rim-brakes survived this long. It’s time for that anachronism to die.

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mpulsiv
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by mpulsiv

TobinHatesYou wrote:I can think of a lot of stuff from the 1900s that I’m grateful were replaced by better technology. It’s a wonder rim-brakes survived this long. It’s time for that anachronism to die.
Let’s not plan the funeral of rim brakes just yet. It’s inevitable that the day will come when purists experience an outstanding performance of disc brakes. I’m no mechanical engineer but perhaps they should increase surface area of a 160mm rotor. Too much ventilated area, no? If heat is an issue, start prototype of integrated heatsink. Shimano made strides with fin design. Long story short, they are getting there.
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

zefs
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by zefs

Disc brakes will only dominate (since they are better) only when they standardize the technology in my opinion. Different axle lengths, different wheel compatibility issues etc.
I feel like companies want to milk the technology and we saw that with the first gen where disc bikes used quick release skewers and now use thru axles which are stiffer/better as they claim. If they keep going like that with their "innovations" we will need to change disc bikes each year.

Also if they plan to push the technology they should start with supplying each bike shop with the replaceable parts.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

What does axle length specifically have to do with disc brakes? What "wheel compatibility issues?" Sure there's alignment to be done with shims if you swap wheels a lot, but we just got done talking about how different width ENVEs brake differently with EEbrakes.

QR disc bikes and 130mm OLD disc bikes were an intermediate step taken by some manufacturers who were impatient. The standards available on MY2019 bikes haven't changed since they were introduced several years ago. 12mm TA is the standard. Flat-mount is the standard. No need to spread FUD about how these two will be replaced in the near future. It won't happen.

zefs
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by zefs

We will see, I don't think it has to do with patience, the axle thru technology was there yet they introduced QR's first. I wouldn't call Giant "some manufacturer". Companies try to pass marketing as innovation on each part of the bike each year, I don't see how disc brakes will be any different on that case and as I said in my opinion they will keep updating the technology since they do not see the adaption they were expecting. Thing is those updates should not require equipment change, like frames or wheels and should be interchangeable or standard.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

87% of road brakes sold to OE customers by SRAM were disc parts for MY2018. I think disc brake adoption is going fine. ;)

For MY2019 that will probably be 93-95%

joejack951
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by joejack951

zefs wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:09 pm
We will see, I don't think it has to do with patience, the axle thru technology was there yet they introduced QR's first. I wouldn't call Giant "some manufacturer". Companies try to pass marketing as innovation on each part of the bike each year, I don't see how disc brakes will be any different on that case and as I said in my opinion they will keep updating the technology since they do not see the adaption they were expecting. Thing is those updates should not require equipment change, like frames or wheels and should be interchangeable or standard.

I was an early adopter of road disc. I was using a Avid BB7 road disc caliper on the front of my CX commuter bike back in 2009. I custom built the front wheel using a MTB quick release hub, something that was super common at the time. Now, MTB QR disc hubs are non-existent so it's no surprise that road disc has just decided to completely move to thru axles as well. TA's aren't necessary but they are a nice-to-have in my opinion, as someone who put 40,000 kms on a QR road front disc setup.

I'm not entirely certain what you are suggesting with your last comment but plenty of QR hubs can be easily converted to thru axle and vice versa. The American Classic QR hub I used on my commuter has that option, and I even own the kit (which I just need to take the time to fit and make some adjustments so I can share the front wheel of that commuter with my new thru axle road disc bike).

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Beaver
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by Beaver

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:34 am
Paging dvq so he can confirm the story of how his ENVE SES 6.7s delaminated/bubbled after 3 years and approximately 25000mi.
We also had one delaminated Enve rim here. BUT it's always the first generation brake track. Have you seen delaminated 2nd gen. Enve, Zipp showstopper, Campy AC3? These also evolved.
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:15 pm
87% of road brakes sold to OE customers by SRAM were disc parts for MY2018. I think disc brake adoption is going fine. ;)

For MY2019 that will probably be 93-95%
Do you also have numbers for Shimano? SRAM unfortunately has become quite exotic on stock bikes...

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Noctiluxx
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by Noctiluxx

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:15 pm
87% of road brakes sold to OE customers by SRAM were disc parts for MY2018. I think disc brake adoption is going fine. ;)

For MY2019 that will probably be 93-95%
So 17 out of 20 bikes sold with SRAM components in 2018 were with disk brakes? :lol:
2018 Bianchi Oltre XR4, (Celeste Matt)
2018 De Rosa SK Pininfarina (Blu)
2019 Trek Madone SLR (Rage Red)
2019 Giant TCR Advanced SL (Chameleon Blue)
2016 Specialized Allez DSW Sprint (Gold)

spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

Noctiluxx wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:11 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:15 pm
87% of road brakes sold to OE customers by SRAM were disc parts for MY2018. I think disc brake adoption is going fine. ;)

For MY2019 that will probably be 93-95%
So 17 out of 20 bikes sold with SRAM components in 2018 were with disk brakes? :lol:
problem is they only sold 20 :beerchug:

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mpulsiv
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by mpulsiv

Noctiluxx wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:11 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:15 pm
87% of road brakes sold to OE customers by SRAM were disc parts for MY2018. I think disc brake adoption is going fine. ;)

For MY2019 that will probably be 93-95%
So 17 out of 20 bikes sold with SRAM components in 2018 were with disk brakes? :lol:
Slightly off topic. I see that you own 2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL (Red) and 2016 Specialized Allez DSW Sprint (Gold). I'd love to hear your feedback as how agile Allez Sprint is next to TCR Advanced.
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

cunn1n9
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by cunn1n9

So I picked up a new Trek Boone today for some CX/gravel adventures. Set it to my positions and took it for a spin. A lot of fun being able to launch off the tarmac into grass and dirt and whatever without a second thought.

Reason to tell you this is that it is my first disc brake bike. TBH I am underwhelmed by the brakes (SRAM Rival). They work perfectly well but the thing is that I think my road bike with alloy rims and rim brakes stops equally as well. My bike with Zipp 303s and Zipp pads is not far behind either.

So for me the Tour experiment is consistent with my experience.

I fully expect that the discs in the wet will be a lot better (but have yet to see for myself). If it’s raining a lot I will not ride, not because I find the decreased braking power dangerous (you just ride slower as you grip levels have decreased also) but simply because it is not enjoyable (I must be soft).

So for CX/gravel and obviously MTB where dirt can destroy your rims and mud could render your brakes useless I get discs. But for road I would feel ripped off if I had replaced any of my 3 beautiful roadies with a disc. The braking is not fundamentally improved and the cost, complexity, weight, etc is to my mind not worth it yet. Perhaps they will improve discs so we can stop on a dime and I will reconsider (but they will also need to improve tyre adhesion also to make that work).

Incidentally my Zipp 303s are 5 years old and have done over 50000km and the brake track is not worn as the pads are soft and sacrificial. So unlike alloy rims that wear carbon lasts “forever” -however alloy brakes still brake a bit better (10-20% in my estimation).




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ryanw
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by ryanw

I'd like to try DA9100 direct mounts on my Enves. I think that could be the answer but I'm sure they still wouldn't be anywhere near as good as discs in the wet.
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by Weenie


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