New Emonda ALR? Discs?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
hlvd
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:54 pm

by hlvd

robertbb wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:04 am
You have the "older" 2016-2018 Emonda ALR though, right?
Yes.

Is the 2019 rim frame a new design or just different paint jobs?

by Weenie


guyc
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Location: Hampshire, England
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by guyc

Review up here

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/07/2019-tr ... alr-review

Smooth roads counts it out for most people in the Uk ;)

robertbb
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

hlvd wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:43 pm
robertbb wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:04 am
You have the "older" 2016-2018 Emonda ALR though, right?
Yes.

Is the 2019 rim frame a new design or just different paint jobs?
New design and DM brakes in rim version. Plus a disc model.

GothicCastle
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:52 am

by GothicCastle

FIJIGabe wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:08 am
That purple color is amazing. Makes me want to build a new bike...
Me, too. Great color.

jfranci3
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Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:21 pm

by jfranci3

Saw one review where it rides well another where someone actually dinged it for riding poorly on 28c tires @ 70psi (??) https://cyclingtips.com/2018/07/2019-tr ... lr-review/ . How often does a bike reviewer actually ding a frameset for something aside from a lack of a feature? James Huang doesn't usually just retype the press release and isn't an idiot, so this is puzzling.
It had to have been an oversized frame or stiff seatpost / stem / bars thing. I had problems with my stock Trek carbon wrapped AL seat post and AL bars, it was brutal with road tires on my Crockett CX bike, even with lot of pole exposed.

jeepntrek
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:23 pm

by jeepntrek

2019 Emonda ALR disc build list:
size 52 ALR frame in purple flip
Ultegra R8020 Hydraulic disc groupset
53/39 chainring
11-28 cassette
Bontrager Aeolus Pro 5 disc wheelset
Continental Grand Prix 25mm tires
Bontrager carbon stem
Bontrager XXX VR-C Factory Overstock Handlebar
Bontrager carbon seatpost
Bontrager Montrose Pro saddle

trying to think of anything i forgot to mention, this build was configured much faster than i anticipated it taking, so stoked for it!

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Calnago
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by Calnago

jfranci3 wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:59 pm
Saw one review where it rides well another where someone actually dinged it for riding poorly on 28c tires @ 70psi (??) https://cyclingtips.com/2018/07/2019-tr ... lr-review/ . How often does a bike reviewer actually ding a frameset for something aside from a lack of a feature? James Huang doesn't usually just retype the press release and isn't an idiot, so this is puzzling.
It had to have been an oversized frame or stiff seatpost / stem / bars thing. I had problems with my stock Trek carbon wrapped AL seat post and AL bars, it was brutal with road tires on my Crockett CX bike, even with lot of pole exposed.
Not sure why you think it's so "puzzling" that it gets dinged for being rather harsh. It is aluminum after all. Aluminium is light and stiff for sure but it is also very unforgiving, and in unsuspended form that will come through on anything but the smoothest of roads. Trek has done a nice job on its design and I assume it's available at a pretty good price point, so good for them. What's more suprising to me in most reviews, regarding anything bicycle related, is the lack of "dinging". It's like the reviewers are under the rule of... "Mama always told me if you can't say anthying nice, then don't say anything at all", or in magazine review speak... "Don't bite the hand that feeds you". I kind of want to hear the negative stuff more than a bunch of fluffy "You're ok, I'm ok, and doggonit people like us" stuff. Tell me the stuff the manufacturers would never dream of putting in their marketing "white papers".
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

jfranci3
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Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:21 pm

by jfranci3

Modern hydroformed AL framesets are no where near as harsh as cast or butted tubes. You can arch, flatten, any very tube thickness with nearly the same control you can’t with carbon layups. With 70psi in the tires, it shouldn’t matter as the tires should be too soft of a spring to allow the frame to flex much.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

I’m certainly not a composites engineer or metallurgist but doesn’t hydroforming simply allow much more control over the shaping and sculpting of the material. As opposed to changing the physical characteristics of the material itself? Meaning, it’s still a relatively stiff material compared to what they can do with carbon fibers and different resins and intricate layups, making things ultra stiff and light (albeit brittle feeling) or more flexible with more dampening characteristics as needed. But yes, with large enough volume tires and low pressure it’s essentially throwing suspension into the mix, so yes, I can see it being a great step forward as far as comfort goes compared to aluminum frames of old. And aesthetically there’s no comparison at all if they can do away with those massive weld areas. Good for Trek. They really do have something for everyone.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Aluminum is technically a softer metal than steel and even titanium, that’s why it can be hydroformed or cold-formed. Hydroforming allows for many of the ride damping features found in carbon layup schedules such as complex shapes and even more aggressive butting than the triple-butting found on traditional bicycle tubing.

I am surprised by the Angry Asian’s comfort nitpick. I bet it rides much like a similarly massive Emonda SL. The main difference would be the integrated seat mast vs the traditional seatpost.

jfranci3
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by jfranci3

You're certainly not an engineer. :-)
You're not riding a block of AL or Carbon. You're riding a bicycle made out of AL or Carbon/resin. Between you an that AL or Carbon frames are your padding, the saddle, and the post. Between the bump in the road and that frame are the tires/air and wheels. Focusing on the frame, you can shape a frame in round tubes (which we did prior to 2009-ish, using stocked sizes then drilled out the middle with the narrowest part needing to be at the edges) OR you can toss that stock round pipe in a form and shape it in a mold.
Cervelo says the frame only determines 5-10% of ride quality https://www.cervelo.com/en/engineering- ... de-quality When you ride a carbon bike, you can feel the difference. A lot of this is the vibration frequency of the material and how much of it there is. AL is terrible here, which is why we hear about road buzz and no one has an AL fork. The size of the frame also matters as a smaller frame will be more rigid for the most part. Also very important are the difference between front and rear compliance, if you put a soft riding rear on a rigid front setup (or vice versa), the ride will feel brutal as your body isn't being moved in unison with your back and arms compensating.

Yes, hydroforming gets you shaping can sculpting. Putting a bend in that shape length-wise or making it non-uniform round-wise will weaken it bending in that direction. This allows you to make a hydroformed frame have better ride qualities. If you look at the Emonda frame, the top tube is flat on top, which allows the frame bend that direction than other directions. It is also arched, again allow some flex lengthwise. AL is still AL, so it doesn't bend as well as steel or carbon, but you can bend it some without failure.
The material and the shape both matter. You can make a shitty riding carbon frame without trying. You can make a shitty steak with the wrong technique and you can make a great meal with shitty beef and the right technique. Think of everything as a spring. Larger diameter tubes, shorter lengths, and thicker walls are stiffer. More pieces coming together at the same point results in stiffness (hence the lower seat stay movement, lower seat post bolts, and d-shaped seat posts). From your seat to the tire, all those spring matter and will compress when you put weight on them in some combined spring rate.


Steel bikes ride better because the tube diameters are narrower along with steels ability to bend - the cost of these narrow tubes is the stiffness.


We're living in an era with 25mm+ tires and low pressures, the question now is if frame compliance even matters. Here James brings to light a good point with some help: https://cyclingtips.com/2018/04/jra-wit ... ll-matter/ (also on their podcast). Basically, if your running modern tires on modern pressures, you'd need a device like Treks bendy thing or Specialized spring thing to notice the difference in ride quality on most bumps in single direction, single event compliance tests. The exactly angle of impact and series of impacts would likely matter.
Last edited by jfranci3 on Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

jfranci3 wrote:...We're living in an era with 25mm+ tires and low pressures, the question now is if frame compliance even matters.
You certainly have a point there. But for those who may not want to go beyond a 25mm road tire on good roads, a nice frame can be comfortable while not having to run fat low pressure tires at the expense of road feel. For sure, if BarcaLounger comfort is your primary concern, then that’s a different category of bike.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 392
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Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

jfranci3 wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:31 pm
You're not riding a block of AL or Carbon. You're riding a bicycle made out of AL or Carbon/resin. Between you an that AL or Carbon frames are your padding, the saddle, and the post. Between the bump in the road and that frame are the tires/air and wheels. Focusing on the frame, you can shape a frame in round tubes (which we did prior to 2009-ish, using stocked sizes then drilled out the middle with the narrowest part needing to be at the edges) OR you can toss that stock round pipe in a form and shape it in a mold.
Cervelo says the frame only determines 5-10% of ride quality https://www.cervelo.com/en/engineering- ... de-quality When you ride a carbon bike, you can feel the difference. A lot of this is the vibration frequency of the material and how much of it there is. AL is terrible here, which is why we hear about road buzz and no one has an AL fork. The size of the frame also matters as a smaller frame will be more rigid for the most part. Also very important are the difference between front and rear compliance, if you put a soft riding rear on a rigid front setup (or vice versa), the ride will feel brutal as your body isn't being moved in unison with your back and arms compensating.

Yes, hydroforming gets you shaping can sculpting. Putting a bend in that shape length-wise or making it non-uniform round-wise will weaken it bending in that direction. This allows you to make a hydroformed frame have better ride qualities. If you look at the Emonda frame, the top tube is flat on top, which allows the frame bend that direction than other directions. It is also arched, again allow some flex lengthwise. AL is still AL, so it doesn't bend as well as steel or carbon, but you can bend it some without failure.
The material and the shape both matter. You can make a shitty riding carbon frame without trying. You can make a shitty steak with the wrong technique and you can make a great meal with shitty beef and the right technique. Think of everything as a spring. Larger diameter tubes, shorter lengths, and thicker walls are stiffer. More pieces coming together at the same point results in stiffness (hence the lower seat stay movement, lower seat post bolts, and d-shaped seat posts). From your seat to the tire, all those spring matter and will compress when you put weight on them in some combined spring rate.


Steel bikes ride better because the tube diameters are narrower along with steels ability to bend - the cost of these narrow tubes is the stiffness.


We're living in an era with 25mm+ tires and low pressures, the question now is if frame compliance even matters. Here James brings to light a good point with some help: https://cyclingtips.com/2018/04/jra-wit ... ll-matter/ (also on their podcast). Basically, if your running modern tires on modern pressures, you'd need a device like Treks bendy thing or Specialized spring thing to notice the difference in ride quality on most bumps in single direction, single event compliance tests. The exactly angle of impact and series of impacts would likely matter.
Quoted for correctness. Also, I recommend reading the two articles linked.
Nice summary, jfranci3.

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

jfranci3
Posts: 628
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:21 pm

by jfranci3

I didn’t actually read that article, I just assumed it was the same as the podcast. He could make another article out of the same content “Why are we seeing all these changes to frame designs?”

GothicCastle
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:52 am

by GothicCastle

jfranci3 wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:59 pm
Saw one review where it rides well another where someone actually dinged it for riding poorly on 28c tires @ 70psi (??)
Metal frames simply feel different than carbon. Carbon can be fairly amazing at smoothing road vibration; aluminum less so. It doesn’t make it bad. Expecting a $950 frame to compare closely to a $4000 frame is unrealistic.

Even so, James is a fairly light guy, so 70 psi on 28c tires might still be a bit high.

I’m very tempted to get one of the purple disc framesets. Also very tempted to try Masi’s new Kermesse frame (also aluminum).

by Weenie


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