Drive train noise and vibration

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
sennder
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:13 pm

by sennder

alcatraz wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:39 am
I wrote to you about checking the hanger.

You can use the eyeballing method I mentioned, but make sure you check from behind the bike and from under the bike with it flipped upside down.

In two planes. Look only at the upper derailleur pulley. It needs to be perfectly parallel with the cassette.

When you tighten your rear wheel skewer you can change the hanger angle. Make sure your pressure is consistent, then do the checks and indexing adjustment, hanger adjustments. Also make sure the wheel is deep in the dropout before tightening the skewer. It will affect shifting because the cassette can change it's angle to the derailleur.

If you are reusing a shimano chain is it possible you've shortened it the second time and put a quick link on? Noise can occur when the chain tension is high. (The B-screw on the derailleur should not really be used for chain tension adjustment but to make sure the upper derailleur pulley is the right distance from the cassette. Set that screw low enough so that you don't have clearance issues on the big cogs. If the chain is too long and touches in small/small you should maybe take a link out. Depends on how much you were off with the B-screw.)

When the wheel is off you can try to feel if your wheel bearings are gritty. It's possible your freehub bearings aren't ok, or properly preloaded so when the chain pulls on the end of the cassette it rattles or moves around a bit. Play should be zero. But you checked that.. just saying it could be likely.
It seems I completely misunderstood what you meant earlier. I thought you were talking about limit adjustment and cable tension. I'll check the alignment as you've described.

My chain came with the "old" connector pin rather than the quick link. It is, however, exactly the length it was before. As for the freehub, I did give the cassette a good wiggle when I checked for play and it seemed just fine. I'll check again.

Thank you so much for your detailed response! Apologies for not understand you earlier.

--Sennder

by Weenie


JScycle
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:41 pm

by JScycle

One of the problems with buying a new hanger is that they do not necessarily come straight or straight in the plane of your specific frame.
The best way to check is with a derailleur hanger alignment gauge.

sennder
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:13 pm

by sennder

JScycle wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:31 am
One of the problems with buying a new hanger is that they do not necessarily come straight or straight in the plane of your specific frame.
The best way to check is with a derailleur hanger alignment gauge.
Very good point! No wonder people get their derailleur hangers aligned instead of just buying a new one. I'll check the hanger by eye first. If I'm unsure about its alignment then, and the new chain doesn't fix the issue, I'll go ahead and take it to the shop to get the hanger aligned.

Thank you!

--Sennder

beanbiken
Posts: 701
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:13 pm
Location: Great Southern Land

by beanbiken

sennder wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:45 am
JScycle wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:31 am
One of the problems with buying a new hanger is that they do not necessarily come straight or straight in the plane of your specific frame.
The best way to check is with a derailleur hanger alignment gauge.
Very good point! No wonder people get their derailleur hangers aligned instead of just buying a new one. I'll check the hanger by eye first. If I'm unsure about its alignment then, and the new chain doesn't fix the issue, I'll go ahead and take it to the shop to get the hanger aligned.

Thank you!

--Sennder
Suggest purchasing your own either now or at some stage. Even if your LBS will straighten/align you hanger for free the convenience of beig able to do it if and when you want is worth the expense multiple times.

BB
BB

Coffee & carbon

sennder
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:13 pm

by sennder

beanbiken wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:02 am
Suggest purchasing your own either now or at some stage. Even if your LBS will straighten/align you hanger for free the convenience of beig able to do it if and when you want is worth the expense multiple times.

BB
I agree with you on that. In fact, in many cases, I've found that it's cheaper to purchase the tools and perform the job yourself than to have a shop do it. The shop was asking for $35 to replace my commuter's BB. I got a cheap crank puller + BB tool for $10 on Amazon. Not the best quality but adequate for the 2-3 times that I'll use it.

I'll give it a shot once I have had a chance to eyeball the alignment.

Thank you!

--Sennder

mattr
Posts: 4598
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

sennder wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:15 am
I didn't notice anything immediately wrong with the hanger from eyeballing it, but I suppose it'll be hard to tell without a derailleur hanger alignment tool.
Pretty much impossible, you cna spot larger twists/bends, but they would *likely* cause shifting issues if they were that bad. If you have a spare rear wheel lying around with a threaded axle, it's the same thread as the mech, so screw it in and check the wheel in the frame and the wheel screwed into the hanger are parallel in all senses of the word!
sennder wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:15 am
If there is a small twist, is there any way to confirm before I purchase a new hanger? I suppose I could take it to the shop but I feel that buying and installing a new hanger will be cheaper.
Even a new hanger will require aligning, as the mounting face isn't neccasarily flat, or accurate.

TBH, for the ~$20 it costs for a hanger alignment tool, i'd just buy one.

mattr
Posts: 4598
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

Serves me right for reading the response to my post then posting, rather than reading all of page 2 first. FFS

sennder
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:13 pm

by sennder

mattr wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:16 am
Serves me right for reading the response to my post then posting, rather than reading all of page 2 first. FFS
No worries. The screwing in a spare rear wheel method sounds really interesting! Sadly, I do not have a spare wheel.
Could you point me to the tool you're referring to? The only ones I saw were the Park Tool DAG 2.2 for $70-75 and the off-brand ones on eBay, Amazon, Wiggle, etc. for $50 or so.

Thank you!

--Sennder

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Calnago
Posts: 8151
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

While there may be various home made solutions to check the hanger alignment, there’s really no substitute for the ease of use of the Park hanger tool. It’s solid, it’s super simple to use. Job done. Eyeballing it will only detect the most blatantly obvious of misalignments at best, and then you still would need a tool to realign it. Also, with each “realignment”, the hanger is weakened, so if it feels super easy to bend, then perhaps it’s time for a new hanger anyway.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

mattr
Posts: 4598
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

I bought the own brand one from wiggle a few years ago. Lifeline i think. Was about 15 quid.

In use it's not so different to the park tool. Just a little bit more play/flex. But as it's not being used to measure, it's not that important.

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Calnago
Posts: 8151
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Agreed. As long as it can let you see if the hanger is out or not, and provide the leverage needed to realign it’s good. I had a VAR hanger prior to the park and as much as I think VAR tool quality is top tier, this particular hanger wasn’t quite square and it bugged the hell out of me. I could use it, but eventually for the Park, since a new Var tool was very hard to come by. Been super happy with the Park Tool, for its robustness and ease of use. I have watched an experienced mechanic use a brand new Record derailleur as a tool for bending a hanger before. Experienced maybe, smart... not so much.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

ohjinguh9
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:41 pm

by ohjinguh9

I would also check the shimano connecting pin you're using. Sometimes if its not seated quite right, it can get pretty noisy too
Personally I prefer the SRAM/KMC quick links for this for that reason alone

Finx
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:14 am

by Finx

I have exactly the same problem as the OP. In my case, it's on two different bikes. One is a brand new Canyon Endurace (XL) with Ultegra 8000 mechanical. The other is a 2017 61cm BMC Roadmachine RM01 with Ultegra 6870 Di2 (2 years old). The BMC had had this problem since it was new

I have two other Shimano 11spd equipped bikes that do not have this priblem. One is a BMC Granfondo GF01. The other is a Ti Volagi Viaje. They both run like a dream.

It's definitely not derailleur adjustments, indexing, hangar alignment or loose cassette or chainrings. I'm very sensitive to my bikes making noise, and am quite adept at set up and fine tuning.

The issue happens only in the big ring on the lower half of the cassette (both 11-28). It happens regardless of how much power is being applied. Everything runs perfect on the small ring.

When I look down at the chain while this is happening, I can see that the chain is vibrating strangley as it comes of if the cassette. It's almost like a harmonic vibration.

I'm perplexed, the local shop guys are perplexed. The bike savvy friends I've showed them to are perplexed as well. We've tried everything including swapping chains, different lubes ( all manner of petroleum and wax based), and swapping wheels, cassettes, cranks, and chainrings. I've even removed the FD to eliminate any rub there as a potential cause.

It's really driving me crazy

sennder
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:13 pm

by sennder

Following alcatraz's comprehensive instructions, I checked the alignment of the top pulley against the cassette. While it's hard to tell from the rear with a single reference point, looking "up" from below with the bike turned upside down, I can see the pulley clearly misaligned with the cassette. The rear end of the pulley is perfectly in line with the cassette, while the front end of the pulley ends up ~1-2mm outboard. It's hard to tell on the smaller gears but it definitely looks slightly twisted. I'm going to go ahead and purchase the Park Tool DAG 2.2 and see if that helps.
ohjinguh9 wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:55 pm
I would also check the shimano connecting pin you're using. Sometimes if its not seated quite right, it can get pretty noisy too
Personally I prefer the SRAM/KMC quick links for this for that reason alone
The connecting pin is in properly (flush on the outside and slightly protruding on the inside.

Thank you for all your advice so far!

--Sennder

mattr
Posts: 4598
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

Can your local bike shop not do the hanger alignment? Rather than dropping $70 (!!!) on park tools.

Or are they useless?

Another thing that springs to mind. It's the mech straight? Had an ongoing issue with a mates bike where indexing would only be ok for a couple of weeks then go to shit and always noisy. Thought it was the crappy cervelo hanger (it was, grabbing a couple of gears under power was bending it) but even after swapping to a better one the noise problem persisted.
Ended up being a slightly bent mech cage. From new. Swapping from his 6800 to mine (ancient, well battered but straight) cured it instantly.

by Weenie


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