anyone has seen this before (tire bedding failing) ?

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AW84
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:04 am

by AW84

I recently had a set of 4000SII's come apart just above the bead. It was part of some external "cord" all the way around the tire that was coming loose over time, getting caught in the brakes and whatnot. One of the tires finally bulged and blew the tube at the sideawall and I tossed them. Still had a lot of tread life left in them. Have brand new sets on both of my bikes now, but will probably switch to another brand once they're worn out.

mikew1927
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:09 am

by mikew1927

sungod wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:03 pm
dorin wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:56 pm
there are so many Zipps out there and carbon clinchers, if carbon rims are the culprit shouldn’t the net be flooded by examples like this?
or maybe it was degraded by heat build up due to braking on the long descent mentioned
^^^ this - quite likely? Given the OP stated a long descent prior. On the brakes a lot?

https://roadbikeaction.com/tech-report- ... clinchers/

"During Zipp’s development of their carbon clincher, they built a test machine that replicates descents up to 50 mph so they could test braking temperatures. What they found was that their rim could withstand more pressure and heat than the best Kevlar-beaded tire out there."

Also in the same article

"An additional point to take into account is that most of the rims and brake pads have been engineered as a proprietary system designed around reducing brake heat. Using the correct brake pads is essential to ensuring your own safety."

Make sure you use the wheel-specific brake pads, to keep rim temps down better, to prevent the tyre bead delaminating. Unfortunately those brake pads will probably be designed to abrade and take excess heat away in the form of brake dust, so they won't last as long.

https://www.zipp.com/support/maintenance/brakepads.php

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dorin
Posts: 177
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:21 pm

by dorin

Let’s take the descend off the table, it was super heavy rain hence I had to descend very very slow, showstopper are better than the previous generation but nowhere near a safe descend in rain, i chose life :)
Normally I’d say constant breaking would be the issue but having the wheels (and me) drenched in water let’s be clear is no chance in hell they overheated to that level....

defride
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 4:26 pm

by defride

I've had this happen a couple of times with Schwalbe One and a Pro One on a Reynolds clincher. Just above the bead but behind the top of the rim so not something you can see until to late. Replaced under warranty iirc, was a while back.

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fa63
Posts: 2533
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:26 am
Location: Atlanta, GA, US

by fa63

Got sidewall separation / subsequent blowout on a 28mm Conti GP4K SII earlier today. Luckily there was a train station about 2 km away, so I took the train back home.
Last edited by fa63 on Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

moonoi
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Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Earth

by moonoi

I had a similar failure with an S-Works Turbo Cotton "Hell of the North" tyre, just let go 25km in to a 110km ride, patched it up with a 20 baht note and went back to the car. Tyres were 6 months old and used for approx 1000km, replaced by the distributor under warranty. Although I did then swap it for a normal S-Works Turbo, since I now have a trust issue with the cottons. This is on a disc brake wheel as well.Image

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mpulsiv
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Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

moonoi wrote:I had a similar failure with an S-Works Turbo Cotton "Hell of the North" tyre, just let go 25km in to a 110km ride, patched it up with a 20 baht note and went back to the car. Tyres were 6 months old and used for approx 1000km, replaced by the distributor under warranty. Although I did then swap it for a normal S-Works Turbo, since I now have a trust issue with the cottons. This is on a disc brake wheel as well.Image

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Not all open tubular (e.g. cotton) are created equal. Don’t give up just yet. Try Veloflex tires.
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izza
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:03 pm

by izza

I’ve had similar to OP.

Dura Ace C24 clinchers on a pair of GP4000s. Alpine usage saw beading melt/fail in several places on both tyres.

Never using them again and this thread proves it’s not just me. It is a common issue with these tyres.


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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I would need the tyres to report. That's how it works. It should really go through the USA distributor though.

Reporting on weight weenies is not reporting to the manufacturer. I have nothing formal report to IRC except two people in the USA who I don't know the name off had tyre failures and binned the tyres so no one can examine them.

From what I have gleened anyway. Your hookless rims tomhatesyou are 21mm internal width. Now consider the short bead to bead distance for this tyre (compared to a schwalbe pro one for example) the internal width is too wide for the 25mm formula Pro tyre. That's what IRC suggested. Dvqs failure is possibly due to the rim he was using. This is a guess as I don't know what rim he used. there are a number of tubeless compatible rims out there with bead hooks that are too sharp or have the wrong Orientation. IRC design there tyres around the 2006 Shimano Hutchinson standard which campagnolo have used for 2 way fit. Mavic UST is soon close its the same. The point being the rim needs to conform to that standard to ensure failures like this don't happen and that applies to all brands of tubeless tyres as Hutchinson schwalbe, panracer, IRC e.t.c all reference the Shimano Hutchinson standard when making there tyres. IRC have had a total of 50 failures like this. IRC make tubeless tyres for other brands too. That's 50 total world wide. In most cases warranty has been honoured but in nearly all cases the rim is at fault not the tyre. IRC and other manufacturers can't design tyres for all the permutations of tubeless ready out there there. That's why failures happen. So I reported as best I could. That's the answer.

Sadly even though good tubeless standards exist manufacturers like enve and DT Swiss think they know better and design there tubeless rims incorrectly. The failures are clustered around certain brands oddly enough not campagnolo/fulcrum 2 way fit, shimano, Mavic ust, kinlin. If were randomly spread it would be the tyre but when certain brands of wheel keep cropping up then it's those wheels but not every one either.

The reason why IRC tyres cost more is that they cost more to produce. They also wear at a slower rate so they pay for themselves normally.

That's what I have to report back.

moonoi
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Location: Earth

by moonoi

mpulsiv wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:26 pm

Not all open tubular (e.g. cotton) are created equal. Don’t give up just yet. Try Veloflex tires.
I tried Veloflex Masters in the past, and had a similar failure, but on a different rim (Reynolds Assault), that was when I discovered they clearly state not to run their open tubulars on carbon rims...at least in this case Specialized honoured the warranty on them.

dorin
Posts: 177
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:21 pm

by dorin

izza wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:58 pm
I’ve had similar to OP.

Dura Ace C24 clinchers on a pair of GP4000s. Alpine usage saw beading melt/fail in several places on both tyres.

Never using them again and this thread proves it’s not just me. It is a common issue with these tyres.


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What are you using now that you found reliable?

izza
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:03 pm

by izza

My favourite is Vittoria’s Corsa.

Also used Pirelli P-zero’s in alps with no issue.


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