Campagnolo Chorus/steel v. (Super) Record/titanium cogs

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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swright
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by swright

I have a Campagnolo 12-29T Chorus (all-steel) cassette that I use for winter training and I bought a (Super) Record 23-26-29 titanium cluster to use for summer riding.
In the picture below, you can see the steel Chorus cog weighs in at 141g.
Campagnolo steel 23-26-29 cog.JPG
Here is the corresponding titanium (Super) Record cluster, weighing in at 91g.
Campagnolo titanium 23-26-29 cog.JPG
Pricewise, the Chorus 12-29T cassette runs $130 and the Record 12-29T cassette runs $360 (these are U.S. dollars).
I found the titanium cluster for $200, so it seems a better deal to buy the Chorus cassette and upgrade to the titanium cogs, then you can use the steel components in winter and save the titanium for summer riding. And going from Chorus to Record is the biggest bang for the buck as the largest cog cluster is replaced by titanium for the biggest weight savings. :D

cheers,
Scott

p.s. A Super Record cassette then replaces the next three cogs down (17-19-21 in the case of the 12-29T cassette) with a titanium cluster, whereas both Chorus and Record use a steel cluster for these cogs, but the smaller cogs have a smaller decrease in net weight as compared to what I show above.titanium

RussellS
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by RussellS

So you ended up making a Record cassette with steel for the first eight cogs, and titanium for the last three cogs. With leftover steel last three cogs too. You made a Record cassette for $330. How much does the Record cassette cost if you just bought it? I'm guessing the last three cogs, 23-26-29, aren't used much ever. So if they are titanium, they will still last forever. No need to have steel spares for these three cogs.

by Weenie


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swright
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by swright

Russell,

I quoted the Record cassette price in my post (did you read the entire post?) -- $360 (so I saved $30 or about 8% off the full Record cost -- don't we all want to save money?).

I live near mountains -- a few thousand feet of climbing is not unusual for a ride, so, yes, I do use the entire range of cogs on the 12-29T. And, yes, I swap out cassettes/wheelsets when the ride is predominantly flat for an 11-23T or 11-25T cassette on a more aero wheelset.

I have a mix of Chorus and Record cassettes and replacement cogs so I can make most cassettes in the Campagnolo range without having to buy every single cassette they offer (admittedly, I didn't mention this as it wasn't the point of my post). If I'm not sprinting, I don't need the 11t and I'd rather reduce the inter-cog gaps to help maintain an efficient cadence.

I'm sorry that the point of my post wasn't evident -- I was trying to show that I could make a Record cassette from components for less than buying one outright and still have spares left over to hold on to (isn't having spares good?) or to resell. I bought the Chorus cassette when I upgraded my groupset but wanted to spend more money at the time on the groupset and save a little on the cassette, which would be easy to upgrade later. And I was trying to show what the weight and cost difference is between the Chorus and Record cassettes (this is weight weenies, isn't it?).

I'll grant the titanium probably is indestructible and would be fine in winter -- perhaps I've gotten into the practice of de-speccing the components I use for winter riding and I need to re-evalute this habit.

cheers,
Scott
2003 Klein Q Carbon Race (aluminum with carbon fiber seatstays) in purple haze, Campagnolo Record 11s groupset, Bora 50 Ultra (rim-brake clincher) wheelset, full Deda Elementi finishing kit, Fabric ALM Ultimate saddle [7.2kg/15.9lbs]

wilwil
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by wilwil

Is a titanaium cassette harder wearing than steel as well as being lighter?

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@swright: I thought your post was interesting and really shows the difference in weight between the cassettes. So thanks for that. Personally I don’t ever mix and match individual cog clusters but I do have many different wheel/cassette combos. I don’t know if titanium lasts longer than steel but the larger cogs with more teeth are likely to last longer than small cogs, regardless of material. I do think titanium can have a greater tendency to creak than steel. Recently I noticed on an 11/29 Record cassette, there was a slight creak, but it was only present in the second largest cog. I took the cassette off, and cleaned every spec of dirt from the freehub and cogs. I also had a good look at the second largest cog. It’s actually sandwiched between the largest cog and the 3rd cog, and held there by rivets, and doesn’t actually touch any of the splines on the freehub itself. So I surmised that maybe there was a tiny bit of movement amongst the rivets, and gave each rivet point a little drop of light oil then reassembled and torqued the lockring down. Seems good since. It’s my understanding that the new 12sp cassettes are made out of solid clusters... so I’m looking forward to seeing them. They may be heavier however. Total silence trumps lightweight and creaking.
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swright
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by swright

@Calnago,

I've never heard any creaks, but I do periodically take off the whole cassette and clean/de-grease everything (I do this during my monthly bike wash when I've degreased the chain and washed the bike and everything is relatively clean from the get-go). I did inadvertantly break a spacer once -- I was used to the metal Shimano spacers and I "scrubbed" the plastic Campagnolo spacer a bit too brusquely and it shattered! :cry: Now I have spare spacers (both kinds) in my workshop!

I haven't seen the 12-speed cassette yet either -- now my interest is piqued. I only have the 2017 Campagnolo spare parts catalog so I haven't even seen an exploded view of the new 12-speed cassette. Next bike... :D

Totally agree on the silence and creaking -- especially because the Record groupset sounds like a well-tuned and stealthy machine when everything is running smoothly with a proper chainline, especially after washing the bike and having freshly re-lubed the chain and oiled all the bearings and pivots! I think the lockring does need to be well-torqued down -- I am always amazed what it takes to apply 40 N-m (and re-amazed at how much effort the corresponding un-tightening takes!).

cheers,
Scott
2003 Klein Q Carbon Race (aluminum with carbon fiber seatstays) in purple haze, Campagnolo Record 11s groupset, Bora 50 Ultra (rim-brake clincher) wheelset, full Deda Elementi finishing kit, Fabric ALM Ultimate saddle [7.2kg/15.9lbs]

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swright
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by swright

wilwil wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:20 pm
Is a titanaium cassette harder wearing than steel as well as being lighter?
Technically, the best steel alloys are actually harder and marginally stronger than titanium, but titanium is about 40% lighter. As you can see from the pics, the titanium cluster is about 35% lighter than the steel, so we're right on the money.

Titanium is also non-magnetic and anti-corrosive, as compared to steel (alloys). On the other hand, titanium does fatigue sooner than steel.

For a bicycle cassette, the pluses for titanium probably outweight the minuses, unless you factor in the cost difference, which is substantial.

Interestingly, the Campagnolo chainrings still use steel rather than titanium. That may again be down to cost -- a 53t/52t/50t titanium large chainring would probably add a bundle onto the (already high) crankset cost!

cheers,
Scott
2003 Klein Q Carbon Race (aluminum with carbon fiber seatstays) in purple haze, Campagnolo Record 11s groupset, Bora 50 Ultra (rim-brake clincher) wheelset, full Deda Elementi finishing kit, Fabric ALM Ultimate saddle [7.2kg/15.9lbs]

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Ti cassettes do wear faster than steel cassettes.

I would not be surprised if the Ti sprocket thickness and consequently the spacer thickness are different on the SR Ti cluster. They certainly are on the record 10 speed cassette compared to the steel version (I am comparing the full Ti cassette to the part Ti cassette). Mix and match could mess with the shifting a bit.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

swright wrote:...
Interestingly, the Campagnolo chainrings still use steel rather than titanium. That may again be down to cost -- a 53t/52t/50t titanium large chainring would probably add a bundle onto the (already high) crankset cost!

cheers,
Scott
Huh? Steel chainrings? Pretty sure they’re an aluminum alloy. If I’m wrong then I’ve learned something today.
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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

They are definitely aluminium alloy.

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swright
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by swright

bm0p700f wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:33 pm
Ti cassettes do wear faster than steel cassettes.

I would not be surprised if the Ti sprocket thickness and consequently the spacer thickness are different on the SR Ti cluster. They certainly are on the record 10 speed cassette compared to the steel version (I am comparing the full Ti cassette to the part Ti cassette). Mix and match could mess with the shifting a bit.
@bm0p700f,

I have the Campagnolo spare parts catalog and the exact same part number is used for the titanium 23-26-29 cluster (Campagnolo part# 11S-369T) on both the current Super Record and Record 11-speed cassettes (in fact, the same 23-26-29 cluster is used on both the 11-29T and 12-29T cassettes across both series). As best as I can tell from the SPC, the 11s Chorus, Record and Super Record cassette components are all fully interchangeable (again, based on the part numbers) and all the Chorus, Record and Super Record cassettes use the same inter-cog/cluster spacers in the same positions. :D

Interestingly, though, the 11-25T and 12-25T do use a different part number for the largest 21-23-25 cluster, even though a 19t cog precedes the 21t cog in both cassettes! Must be a reason in there somewhere...

Super Record uses titanium for the largest six cogs (two three-cog permanently attached clusters) and steel for the five smallest cogs, Record uses titanium for the largest three cogs (one three-cog permanently attached cluster) and steel for the five smallest cogs and the "middle" three-cog permanently attached cluster, and Chorus uses steel for everything. That is, the smallest five cogs are steel no matter which series cassette you buy, Chorus, Record or Super Record.

There is actually a bigger difference between the cogs used in the cassettes depending on whether the smallest cog is 11t or 12t (and a different lockring is used in each case), at least for the latest iteration of Super Record/Record/Chorus 11s. For example, the 15t cog in the 11-27T cassette is a different part than the 15t cog in the 12-27T cassette.

I could probably go on, but I'm sure to have bored you by now... :wink:

cheers,
Scott
2003 Klein Q Carbon Race (aluminum with carbon fiber seatstays) in purple haze, Campagnolo Record 11s groupset, Bora 50 Ultra (rim-brake clincher) wheelset, full Deda Elementi finishing kit, Fabric ALM Ultimate saddle [7.2kg/15.9lbs]

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Calnago
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by Calnago

They are different due to the shift ramps. Similar to chainrings, the cogs are “timed” to work well with the cogs next to them. They differ depending on the range you’re using. Hence you need to match the cogs with the range they are intended for.
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swright
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by swright

bm0p700f wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:38 pm
They are definitely aluminium alloy.
Sorry, @bm0p700f, @Calnago, you lose! :D

They are definitely steel -- aluminum is paramagnetic and the (small) cogs on my cassettes hold a magnet like glue!

The chain rings don't attract, however, so they appear to be an aluminum alloy -- I guess bimetallic corrosion between the cassette cogs, chain and chainrings isn't an issue, at least for the metals being used by Campagnolo. Keeping the chain well-lubed and keeping it dry probably help, too.

cheers,
Scott
2003 Klein Q Carbon Race (aluminum with carbon fiber seatstays) in purple haze, Campagnolo Record 11s groupset, Bora 50 Ultra (rim-brake clincher) wheelset, full Deda Elementi finishing kit, Fabric ALM Ultimate saddle [7.2kg/15.9lbs]

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Huh, the chainrings are aluminum alloy. That’s what we said. We weren’t talking about the cogs which are, of course, just like you said... Super Record: two largest clusters of 3 cogs are ti, smaller individual cogs steel. Record: Largest cluster of 3 is ti, second cluster and individual cogs are steel. Chorus: all steel.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
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by Weenie


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swright
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by swright

swright wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:09 pm
bm0p700f wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:38 pm
They are definitely aluminium alloy.
Sorry, @bm0p700f, @Calnago, you lose! :D

They are definitely steel -- aluminum is paramagnetic and the (small) cogs on my cassettes hold a magnet like glue!

The chain rings don't attract, however, so they appear to be an aluminum alloy -- I guess bimetallic corrosion between the cassette cogs, chain and chainrings isn't an issue, at least for the metals being used by Campagnolo. Keeping the chain well-lubed and keeping it dry probably help, too.

cheers,
Scott
Sorry, @bm0p700f, @Calnago, my bad -- I didn't read carefully enough and missed/forgot my assertion that the chainrings were steel -- I was typing too quick and just trying to get across that titanium chainrings would certainly cost a lot. You are entirely right regarding the chainrings being an aluminum alloy, not steel as I (mis-)posted.

cheers,
Scott
2003 Klein Q Carbon Race (aluminum with carbon fiber seatstays) in purple haze, Campagnolo Record 11s groupset, Bora 50 Ultra (rim-brake clincher) wheelset, full Deda Elementi finishing kit, Fabric ALM Ultimate saddle [7.2kg/15.9lbs]

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