Advice: Titanium Frame

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
pyf
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:38 pm
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by pyf

benz76 wrote:The only thing that comes close to Moots weldings were Merlin's early 90s weldings...
I think Merlins were welded by FTW (Frank The Welder), one by one...

Notice that welding refinement has nothing to do with welding quality and by consequence with frame's quality. Generally speaking, the more you work around a welded joint, the more you weaken it...

Notice that I'm NOT meaning anything on Moots' frame: this is an overall consideration...

Bye, Benz.


I do agree, working around welds could be dangerous if not done with real precision.
But that's exactly what is impressive with moots, they do not work around the welds, these are just the original welds with no work after on them !!!

Polished welds can be a good thing if well done (Cannondale for example), because the amount of material is exactly the same everywhere so that makes "uniform" welds. I think Cannondale put more material when welding to be sure they can remove exactly what they want during polishing. On the other hand, if the construction quality is not excellent, I prefer that the welds are not worked more than necessary...

All is a question of quality... :wink:

Scapin/Dean
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:08 pm
Location: South NJ Shore

by Scapin/Dean

Here's the complete picture on my new 15.42 pound Dean 54cm El Diente. Record 10-speed group with an FSA Compact Pro crankset and RD-400 clincher wheels (decals removed). Only change to be made is to a 90mm FSA stem, which is on the way. Works great on the trainer, but won't get any dry weather here until Thursday (3 inches in last two days). Hope it rides as good as it looks (to me, anyway).
Attachments
Dean Done.jpg
Just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean we aren't out to get you.
Those who ignore histroy are doomed to repeat it.

Scapin/Dean
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:08 pm
Location: South NJ Shore

by Scapin/Dean

An old thread, but now have enough miles/experience with my Dean El Diente to comment. The arguuments about who makes the most beautiful bike/best welds/customer service issues/etc. aside, I can only say that after some 600 miles, my Dean is, BY FAR, the nicest riding, handling, responsive, comfortable bicycle I've ever riden. Not sure what the magic is with titanium, but it absorbs road roughness like nothing else while still being very stiff and responsive. I did 75 miles in the hills of SE PA yesterday and it was superb! Nice and stiff for climbs and rock-solid at 40+ on the downhills. I'm sure that the Record group, FSA compact crankset & RD-400 wheels and Alpha Q Sub3 fork and other bits had something to do with it, but I've used similar set-ups on my other high-end bikes and nothing compares. Steel may be real, but Titanium rules. Can't wait for the BTC next month.
Just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean we aren't out to get you.
Those who ignore histroy are doomed to repeat it.

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Samu Ilonen
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by Samu Ilonen

This is my bike, own desing. 61cm/1522g.

Bike as picture, weight 7.2kg with pedals and bottle holders. Build to be super stiff and last in hard racing. So Stork Stiletto fork and King headset are needet. Stem (115g) is 120mm and Os-size. Seatpost is 139g, 270X27.2mm with steel bolts.
Attachments
ti-runko.jpg

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cadence90
Posts: 1695
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:52 am

by cadence90

My new Kish ti frame will be complete in 2 weeks! :D
"Gimondi è un eroe umano, che viene sconfitto ma che continua la sua corsa fino a tornare a vincere." - Enrico Ruggeri

Rippin
Posts: 609
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:58 am

by Rippin

Scapin/Dean wrote:An old thread, but now have enough miles/experience with my Dean El Diente to comment. The arguuments about who makes the most beautiful bike/best welds/customer service issues/etc. aside, I can only say that after some 600 miles, my Dean is, BY FAR, the nicest riding, handling, responsive, comfortable bicycle I've ever riden. Not sure what the magic is with titanium, but it absorbs road roughness like nothing else while still being very stiff and responsive. I did 75 miles in the hills of SE PA yesterday and it was superb! Nice and stiff for climbs and rock-solid at 40+ on the downhills. I'm sure that the Record group, FSA compact crankset & RD-400 wheels and Alpha Q Sub3 fork and other bits had something to do with it, but I've used similar set-ups on my other high-end bikes and nothing compares. Steel may be real, but Titanium rules. Can't wait for the BTC next month.


Even though I had similar problems with Dean, I have to agree that their bikes ride great - best ride I've experienced so far. I am building a Calfee within the next month so it will be interesting to see if that rides better than the Dean. When it comes to weld quality and such, Dean is on par with most, even better than Litespeed --- but nothing matches the cleanlinest of a Moots frame.

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KRAFTWERK
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:30 am
Location: Sweden

by KRAFTWERK

Scapin/Dean wrote:Here's the complete picture on my new 15.42 pound Dean 54cm El Diente. Record 10-speed group with an FSA Compact Pro crankset and RD-400 clincher wheels (decals removed). Only change to be made is to a 90mm FSA stem, which is on the way. Works great on the trainer, but won't get any dry weather here until Thursday (3 inches in last two days). Hope it rides as good as it looks (to me, anyway).


Nice ride Dean!
Carbon, Aluminium... Velo Titanium.
(KRAFTWERK_AERODYNAMIK)
http://www.kraftwerk.com/

pyf
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:38 pm
Location: France
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by pyf

This is my bike, own desing. 61cm/1522g.

Bike as picture, weight 7.2kg with pedals and bottle holders. Build to be super stiff and last in hard racing. So Stork Stiletto fork and King headset are needet. Stem (115g) is 120mm and Os-size. Seatpost is 139g, 270X27.2mm with steel bolts.


Do you mean that you built it yourself ? sounds very interesting :wink:
Could you give us more informations ???
Thanks

My new Kish ti frame will be complete in 2 weeks!


Have you received all the components ?

some new pictures of my moots, sorry the first one is horrible, welds pictures are better :D

http://pyf-wheels.chez.tiscali.fr/moots ... i_2004.JPG

http://pyf-wheels.chez.tiscali.fr/moots ... ille_1.JPG

http://pyf-wheels.chez.tiscali.fr/moots ... ille_2.JPG

http://pyf-wheels.chez.tiscali.fr/moots ... _selle.JPG

C-40
Posts: 554
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:11 pm
Location: Detroit-USA
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by C-40

Gorgeous photos of the ultimate in craftsmanship........only thing close are Serottas ultra clean lug work.......... too bad that the era of Titanium is now behind us.........

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cadence90
Posts: 1695
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:52 am

by cadence90

pyf wrote:
My new Kish ti frame will be complete in 2 weeks!

Have you received all the components ?

Yes, pretty much all the components are here. I will post some photos when the bike is finished.

Great photos pyf. That is amazing work.

I would be interested in hearing about Samu's bike too.

Behind us :?: I don't think so. I thought the era of multi-colored c-frames was behind us.... :wink: :P
"Gimondi è un eroe umano, che viene sconfitto ma che continua la sua corsa fino a tornare a vincere." - Enrico Ruggeri

C-40
Posts: 554
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by C-40

Behind us :?: I don't think so. I thought the era of multi-colored c-frames was behind us.... :wink: :P[/quote]


Just my opinion, but except for durability there are many negative COMMERCIAL factors which are working against titanium: 1. the cost of the raw material 2. the cost of tooling 3. the skill required to work the material 4. the weight to strength ratio
Five years ago things were different...... alum, carbon and the choice du jour: alum:carbon combos......
But what about magnesium?????????

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Samu Ilonen
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by Samu Ilonen

I just design and test those. I can't weld like this. Two colors, brushed or sand blasted. I mainly have done cyclocross bikes because they use most benefits of titanium. Good ride, can take beating,light, custom geometry for all need etc. I have done also road, time trial, Single speed (EBB+disks=nice!) frames+stems, bars (mtb 630mm/5d),seat posts.

I have designed ti TT-bar with stem+brake levers, weight under 500g...triatlete dream? Should be very solid. I'm getting one to my own bike on autumn.

What you want to know?
Attachments
ti-telineet.jpg
TT-keskio.jpg

Scapin/Dean
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:08 pm
Location: South NJ Shore

by Scapin/Dean

Moots is having a factory sponsored ride this June 30. Includes support, factory tour, etc. I will be in Steamboat as part of riding the BTC, so will be able to compare their wares directly with my Dean. Should be interesting.
Just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean we aren't out to get you.
Those who ignore histroy are doomed to repeat it.

Scapin/Dean
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:08 pm
Location: South NJ Shore

by Scapin/Dean

Just returned from a couple of weeks of riding up and down the "hills" in north central Colorado. While there I visited both the Dean and Moots fab shops. There are some differences, as follows:

1. Moots spends a ton more money on their facility. Is probably five times the size of the Dean facility. Moots probably has five times the machine tools, etc., as well. And several additional employees.
2. Same for marketing. Moots has a slick catalog, clothing, etc. Dean has very little in this area.
3. Moots does bead blast the entire finished frame, including welds. They have a 'walk-in' bead-blast room for doing so. The Moots bead-blast finish was described to me by their people as their 'signature' finish. I ask several folks, including Kent, if the weld area is bead-blasted. Indeed, the entire bike is bead-blasted. We were shown same on the facility tour.
4. Moots does not make a first-pass fusion (autogenous) or final (filler) 360 degree weld on all joints. Dean does. Underneath the seat-tube where it overlaps the down-tube at the BB shell, Moots does not weld the covered joint area. Dean does both a fusion weld first pass and then a filler weld second pass in this area. Don't know that the it is needed, but on the Dean all joints are welded 360 degrees in two passes. Not so on a Moots.
5. Dean produces 800+ frames a year and Moots produces 1000+. Not a great deal of difference. Both stated that they are doing about 55% road bikes.
6. All of Dean's main tubing is double butted. The only tube on a Moots that is not straight gauge is the head-tube, which starts out as straight gauge and then is machined in a lathe to thin the wall starting at about 1/2" from either end. Result is that the head-tube almost looks like it is lugged.
7. Both companies do a 100% quality control check on a finished frame by both visual inspection and mounting in an alignment jig.
8. Not an ounce (or gram) of difference in the quality of the welds from either Moots or Dean from what I have seen (probably 40+ bikes from each manufacturer). Both are truly excellent quality.

IMHO the major difference between the two is slick presentation and higher level of customer service offered by Moots. But with an ~$1000 higher price, you are paying for it.

After two weeks, ~30,000 feet of climbing and ~600 miles of riding in Colorado I can say without equivocation that a titanium frame & carbon fork offers the best combination of ride qualities that I have ever experienced. From climbing a 15% grade to flying down the switchbacks on the other side at up to 50 mph, from smooth road to crap, from 40 degrees at 12,286 feet to 80 degrees at 4,000, the stability, handling and comfort is second to nothing I've ever riden before. Titanium definitely rules!!

While I ride a Dean, I would like to thank the folks at Moots for hosting the group I rode with for the day. A nice 45 mile ride and a good tour of their facility, along with refreshments. In addition, they provided a dozen bikes each day as demonstrators. As a result I know that they sold several bikes to people on the ride. Moots also has a really clever seat pack. Large enough for your wet-weather gear and very light weight as is a ti frame. Most clever. Moots is a class act.
Just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean we aren't out to get you.
Those who ignore histroy are doomed to repeat it.

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cadence90
Posts: 1695
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:52 am

by cadence90

Nice of you to follow up.
It sounds like you had a nice tour of both facilities, and some very nice riding!
I'm glad you like the Dean.
I like my Kish! :D
"Gimondi è un eroe umano, che viene sconfitto ma che continua la sua corsa fino a tornare a vincere." - Enrico Ruggeri

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