2019 bike roll out jam

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Karvalo
Posts: 466
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

robeambro wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:41 am
I would guess the reviewers paid attention to inflating the tyres at reasonable pressure.
Maybe, but they're definitely wrong about 25mm being the limit you can use which isn't a good start.

I guess it depends where your reference is. I would expect the Madone to be more comfortable over bigger hits than the SystemSix. It seems unlikely that the Venge frame could be a lot lighter, just as stiff and significantly more compliant than the SystemSix, but maybe it really is that good :noidea:

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 384
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

Hexsense wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:10 am
I think Cannondale should educate customer about lowering pressure for wide wheelset too.
25c on 15mm internal width and 25c on 21mm internal width require very different pressure.
Over inflating the 25c on 21mm (using pressure that suite for 25c on 15mm internal width) will kill comfort of any bike.
Hi Hexsense,

Yep. We recommend inflating based on the measured width, not the labelled width.

We're studying different ways of defining optimum pressure:
  • For performance: Rolling resistance, aero drag (there should be an optimum for different road surfaces)
  • For comfort: spring rate and vibration transmission (usually lower is better)
  • For practicality: pinch flats are still possible (higher is better)
What has been your experience?

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

by Weenie


Stueys
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:12 pm

by Stueys

DamonRinard wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:10 pm
Hexsense wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:10 am
I think Cannondale should educate customer about lowering pressure for wide wheelset too.
25c on 15mm internal width and 25c on 21mm internal width require very different pressure.
Over inflating the 25c on 21mm (using pressure that suite for 25c on 15mm internal width) will kill comfort of any bike.
Hi Hexsense,

Yep. We recommend inflating based on the measured width, not the labelled width.

We're studying different ways of defining optimum pressure:
  • For performance: Rolling resistance, aero drag (there should be an optimum for different road surfaces)
  • For comfort: spring rate and vibration transmission (usually lower is better)
  • For practicality: pinch flats are still possible (higher is better)
What has been your experience?

Cheers,
Damon
I think the answer to all of those (other than aero) is go tubeless :D

mrlobber
Posts: 868
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:36 am
Location: Where the permanent autumn is

by mrlobber

Stueys wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:15 pm
I think the answer to all of those (other than aero) is go tubeless :D
Or tubular ;) (couldn't resist, sorry)
Retired bikes: Cervelo S5 2015 / Felt AR FRD 2014 / Cannondale SS HM 2014 / Scott Addict SL 2014 / Scott Plasma Premium 2014 / Orbea Orca 2008 / Look 596 /

TiCass
Posts: 226
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:13 pm

by TiCass

I just don't get the fuzz about tubeless.

Still have to ride with sealant and a spare tube.
Still heavier than latex
Still worse rolling resistance than latex

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.co ... s-clincher

mrlobber
Posts: 868
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:36 am
Location: Where the permanent autumn is

by mrlobber

Let's not turn this into another tubeless thread, though :D
Retired bikes: Cervelo S5 2015 / Felt AR FRD 2014 / Cannondale SS HM 2014 / Scott Addict SL 2014 / Scott Plasma Premium 2014 / Orbea Orca 2008 / Look 596 /

Hexsense
Posts: 738
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

DamonRinard wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:10 pm
What has been your experience?

Cheers,
Damon
I gear toward comfort on bad bumpy road. But i don't feel the lose of performance either.

on 21mm internal width,
23c front and 25c rear at 70-75psi. Difference in tire width already taken care of difference in weight balance.

I also have 23mm internal width rims,
25c front and 28c rear at 65psi.

I only get pinch flat once on the 23c hitting sharp 2-3cm tall road step.
It's been trouble less so far otherwise. At this kind of pressure, narrower rim wouldn't be stable enough on hard corner and feel squishy. But wide rim overcome it :beerchug:

Stueys
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:12 pm

by Stueys

----deleted so as not to highjack thread------

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

TiCass wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:45 pm
I just don't get the fuzz about tubeless.

Still have to ride with sealant and a spare tube.
Still heavier than latex
Still worse rolling resistance than latex

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.co ... s-clincher
The whole deal with tubeless is riding with lower pressure. Not sure all of us have a need for such low pressures though!?
I guess the fastest way is still changing inner tube. Tubular IMO, is cool and ideal if you ride rim brake wheels.
But (atleast for me) it's crap if a puncture comes up.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

robeambro
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

Meanwhile, while lusting after bikes on Instagram (as you do), I found this post, which seems to suggest that Tour Magazine will have a face-off between the Systemsix and the Madone.. I wonder if they'll have similar findings to the review discussed earlier? Hopefully our German friends can help..

https://www.instagram.com/p/BqH9omeHKKO/

robeambro
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

ScottinFL wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:41 pm
^^^ Wow, stunning. Especially in that light.

I will say that the reviews seem to be spot on. Their assessment of the Venge is exactly my observation as well -- very quick handling, very light feeling, and quick/stiff everywhere it needs to be. A lively and competitive ride for experienced riders.

One thing I thought a bit interesting was the knock on the 'Dale SS for being overweight but no mention of the Trek's weight, which is nearly identical.

Still can't believe that BMC Timemachine Road and 'Velo S5 are in such late release. I feel like they may have missed a good opportunity by not releasing their 2019 models when everyone else did (i.e. right around the TDF). I for one was interested in both but eventually gave up waiting.
I wanted to have a second look at this review, and to be honest I find it hard to believe this not being a Trek advert.
Aside from the weight, the writers clearly ignored/minimised issues such as the Madone's weight and the lack of practicality (proprietary stem and handlebar) compared to the other two, while exaggerating minimal problems with the others.

For example, in the final wrap up, Madone's cons do not mention weight and include "it is no longer in our garage".. In the conclusion they don't even mention the lack of a powermeter (which they did address partially earlier on..).

On the Venge, one can read more cons, which are in most cases laughable, such as "rounded crank shape doesn't match the angular shapes of the frame" - I don't think I need to say more on this. Or, "tire puncure protection".. As if that was a big issue seemingly unsolvable.. Specialized's tire puncure resistance is worth mentioning in the conclusion, but Trek's lack of a PM isn't. Oookay.

Finally, the language is clearly aimed at making the Madone look better. While Trek "manages to keep the weight at 7.63", Cannondale with 30 more gram "is the heaviest", with "slow acceleration". Despite a jungle of proprietary parts, Trek is a "masterpiece of engineering" and suitable for everybody, while Cannondale "saves a few watts", and is for "the speed junkies".

I don't know, probably the Madone may be the best bike out there, but I find this review to be biased.

CAAD8FRED
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:52 pm

by CAAD8FRED

robeambro wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:12 pm
ScottinFL wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:41 pm
^^^ Wow, stunning. Especially in that light.

I will say that the reviews seem to be spot on. Their assessment of the Venge is exactly my observation as well -- very quick handling, very light feeling, and quick/stiff everywhere it needs to be. A lively and competitive ride for experienced riders.

One thing I thought a bit interesting was the knock on the 'Dale SS for being overweight but no mention of the Trek's weight, which is nearly identical.

Still can't believe that BMC Timemachine Road and 'Velo S5 are in such late release. I feel like they may have missed a good opportunity by not releasing their 2019 models when everyone else did (i.e. right around the TDF). I for one was interested in both but eventually gave up waiting.
I wanted to have a second look at this review, and to be honest I find it hard to believe this not being a Trek advert.
Aside from the weight, the writers clearly ignored/minimised issues such as the Madone's weight and the lack of practicality (proprietary stem and handlebar) compared to the other two, while exaggerating minimal problems with the others.

For example, in the final wrap up, Madone's cons do not mention weight and include "it is no longer in our garage".. In the conclusion they don't even mention the lack of a powermeter (which they did address partially earlier on..).

On the Venge, one can read more cons, which are in most cases laughable, such as "rounded crank shape doesn't match the angular shapes of the frame" - I don't think I need to say more on this. Or, "tire puncure protection".. As if that was a big issue seemingly unsolvable.. Specialized's tire puncure resistance is worth mentioning in the conclusion, but Trek's lack of a PM isn't. Oookay.

Finally, the language is clearly aimed at making the Madone look better. While Trek "manages to keep the weight at 7.63", Cannondale with 30 more gram "is the heaviest", with "slow acceleration". Despite a jungle of proprietary parts, Trek is a "masterpiece of engineering" and suitable for everybody, while Cannondale "saves a few watts", and is for "the speed junkies".

I don't know, probably the Madone may be the best bike out there, but I find this review to be biased.
What specific review are you referencing?

robeambro
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

CAAD8FRED wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:49 pm
robeambro wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:12 pm
ScottinFL wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:41 pm
^^^ Wow, stunning. Especially in that light.

I will say that the reviews seem to be spot on. Their assessment of the Venge is exactly my observation as well -- very quick handling, very light feeling, and quick/stiff everywhere it needs to be. A lively and competitive ride for experienced riders.

One thing I thought a bit interesting was the knock on the 'Dale SS for being overweight but no mention of the Trek's weight, which is nearly identical.

Still can't believe that BMC Timemachine Road and 'Velo S5 are in such late release. I feel like they may have missed a good opportunity by not releasing their 2019 models when everyone else did (i.e. right around the TDF). I for one was interested in both but eventually gave up waiting.
I wanted to have a second look at this review, and to be honest I find it hard to believe this not being a Trek advert.
Aside from the weight, the writers clearly ignored/minimised issues such as the Madone's weight and the lack of practicality (proprietary stem and handlebar) compared to the other two, while exaggerating minimal problems with the others.

For example, in the final wrap up, Madone's cons do not mention weight and include "it is no longer in our garage".. In the conclusion they don't even mention the lack of a powermeter (which they did address partially earlier on..).

On the Venge, one can read more cons, which are in most cases laughable, such as "rounded crank shape doesn't match the angular shapes of the frame" - I don't think I need to say more on this. Or, "tire puncure protection".. As if that was a big issue seemingly unsolvable.. Specialized's tire puncure resistance is worth mentioning in the conclusion, but Trek's lack of a PM isn't. Oookay.

Finally, the language is clearly aimed at making the Madone look better. While Trek "manages to keep the weight at 7.63", Cannondale with 30 more gram "is the heaviest", with "slow acceleration". Despite a jungle of proprietary parts, Trek is a "masterpiece of engineering" and suitable for everybody, while Cannondale "saves a few watts", and is for "the speed junkies".

I don't know, probably the Madone may be the best bike out there, but I find this review to be biased.
What specific review are you referencing?
If you read the posts following this one, you will find some screenshots with bits of it, and explanation on how to get to the whole review I was referring to: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... 5#p1441348

Now I see they also put it on their website: https://granfondo-cycling.com/best-aero-bike-2019/
I havent read the web version yet.

batonb
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:13 am

by batonb

https://scontent-frx5-1.cdninstagram.co ... 8589_n.jpg

I found this photo on instagram from some crit event, frame looks kinda different to me and I was wondering if it is some type ofr prototype of new tcr?

by Weenie


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mpulsiv
Posts: 1282
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

batonb wrote:https://scontent-frx5-1.cdninstagram.co ... 8589_n.jpg

I found this photo on instagram from some crit event, frame looks kinda different to me and I was wondering if it is some type ofr prototype of new tcr?
This is 2019 SL frame www.giant-bicycles.com/us/tcr-advanced-sl-disc-frameset
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

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