Optimal Chainlength - It's A New Day

[Dannnnn]

Just read through the main post on this about the cassette not clearing the RD when you remove the wheel.

I occasionally find this with my bike. I changed the groupset last year (everything including chain but using same cassette ratios and crankset ratios) and sized the chain using the old one (which came from the factory).

How can I stop the cassette catching the RD when I remove the wheel?

[dj97223]

Here's what I do on my Campag-equipped bikes. Shift to the small ring and small cog; open the skewer; push the end of the cage (where the bottom jockey wheel is) down (towards the floor), and the wheel drops right out.

[mattr]

Thinking about it further and looking at my two bikes side by side this morning, the increased noise may simply be due to the greater wrap of the 9100 gen RDs. I counted 15 chain links engaged with the cassette when it's in the 39x28 combo. On the 9150 bike, 19 chain links are engaged in that same combo.

More contact = more friction = more noise? Could it be that simple?

Quite possibly. Only the last half dozen or so rollers/pins are actually under load when pedalling (with a new/unworn chain) the rest simply guide the chain and are under minimal load, so you will get some movement, both side to side and in the direction of travel between the pins/rollers and cassette.

As the chain/cassette gets worn the dynamic can change with things like the loaded rollers riding up the teeth and so on.

I've seen some very high speed footage showing how this happens (not on a bicycle , but a chain drive system).

[Calnago]

Agreed... also I think @bdaGhisallo said his system was fairly new. Shimano only has a light oil on their new chains versus Campy’s thick packing grease. I will sometimes strip as much grease as possible off a new chain prior to install so that it is as lube free and dry as possible, simply because it allows me to “hear” any slight imperfections in the fine tuning stage of things. After I dial it in I personally use Dumonde Tech Lite as my chain lube which after a couple or 3 applications kind of coats the chain with a film of “plastic” and really keeps things quiet. I never completely strip a chain clean with degreasers or anything after that. Just wash it in a Park ChainCleaner took with a little warm soapy and rinse it off with a nosel spray from the hose. Dry it off and apply a slight drop of Duomonde Texh to each roller and call it good. Main thing is to keep the chain free of grit and grime. It gets better with use. A sparkling bright chain is just a sign of a lot of degreasing going on and is usually quite noisy. My chains are usually fairly black looking yet free of grit, and super quiet. Have to say though, I’ve not noticed an increase in noise with the Shimano drivetrain but I will keep a keen ear open for it in the future.

Oh, to the guys just talking about wheel removal... the Campy removal is a non issue with respect to this thread... really only addressing the new Shimano Road “shadow” derailleurs here. And as far as what you can do... to the one poster, if it’s only an issue some of the time it’s probably due more to your technique. If it’s an issue all of the time there are a couple things you can do and have been done by Team Sky which I discussed earlier in the thread. Goes against Shimano’s specific instructions however.

[mag]

@Calnago (going slightly OT) Seaking of the chain cleaning - how exactly do you clean the Campy chain (e.g. without its removal)? I use mostly some rag and then relube it. Anything better you might suggest given your incredible experience?

[BdaGhisallo]

Agreed... also I think @bdaGhisallo said his system was fairly new.

Yup - everything brand spanking new with less than 50 miles on it.

I used Dumonde Tech years ago and quite liked it. The smell reminded me of the aroma of the pear drop candies I used to eat when I was a kid. I've been using NFS Lube for the last two years and it's great and silent and lasts forever and won't wash away in the wet.

[Calnago]

Hmmm, yes it does have a nice smell... “pear drop candies” had not come to mind but that does sound nice. Hmmm... perhaps I will lube my chain this evening, or just have dessert instead.

[Calnago]

@Calnago (going slightly OT) Seaking of the chain cleaning - how exactly do you clean the Campy chain (e.g. without its removal)? I use mostly some rag and then relube it. Anything better you might suggest given your incredible experience?

I don't think this requires experience so much as just common sense. If your wife doesn't mind you ruining a small sauce pan, they make excellent chain soaking/degreasing dishes. Here we have a new campy chain soaking in Simple Green next to the Espresso machine....

This is a highly controversial subject as there was a time where airline bolts corroded due to the cleaning with Simple Green which led to the development of the purple Simple Green Extreme. Lol... you'd think the Extreme version would clean better but it does not, and I am not flying my bike in the air carrying hundreds of people. A little soak and scrub in Simple Green works just fine for getting most of the thick grease off a new Campy chain. But truth is, I often just mount them all greased up now straight out of the packaging, as I know how to dial things in pretty accurately without sound at this point. Then, if I feel like it I might use some Citrus Degreaser the first time I'm about to relube it with it's first application of Duomonde Tech, just to get it as clean as possible. After that, just the Park chainwasher thingy with some warm soapy (Dawn) water, rinse, dry and apply a little Duomonde Tech. Especially if you're in a wet climate, I've not found anything that stays on chain better than this stuff.


[Edit]: Sorry Mag, to add about chain cleaning "without its removal"... just the Park Chaincleaning tool and soapy water. Take a stiff brush to it if you like as well. I don't get it "sparkling" clean, I don't want to. Just want to get the grittiness out, so a hose with a nozzle, the park tool, some soapy water and voila... clean chain. In fact, in the old days, Campy's instructions used to reommend Kerosene specifically because it also had some lubricating properties versus a degreaser which would strip everything off. Of course, Kerosene is not exactly environmentally friendly so has long since been removed from the instruction sheets.

[BdaGhisallo]

I am a "clean it all out and start fresh" believer. New chains get wiped down thoroughly with a cloth, swished around in a bottle with OMS and then in an ultrasonic cleaner with OMS to get the shipping protectant completely out of a new chain. Once it's dry, it's on with an application of NFS or other lube and there she goes.

[Karvalo]

I have to admit, when I first saw this thread I kinda thought 'shouldn't everyone be able to figure this out anyway?' But it does seem like there are quite a few sub-optimal setups out there. And then there's this from Felt's 2019 promo...




What are we thinking, all good?

[BdaGhisallo]

Look at how little clearance there is between the tire and the back of the seat tube - not enough to easily remove the rear wheel I am sure. I have no doubt that is why they have the B Link all jacked rearward like you see.

[Karvalo]

Look at how little clearance there is between the tire and the back of the seat tube - not enough to easily remove the rear wheel I am sure. I have no doubt that is why they have the B Link all jacked rearward like you see.

I like that you're being charitable, but unfortunately not. First, because you don't need to *f##k* the B link position to get a wheel out. The upper pulley shoves out of the way regardless. Second, because on other builds of the same frame design they managed to do it properly.

[BdaGhisallo]

Felt may have installed the RD with the B Link correctly oriented but that small degree of tire-seat tube clearance might make things tough getting the wheel out, even with pivoting the RD back as you are doing it. Sky have long been rotating their B Links back a bit to afford them an easier time making rear wheel changes with the Pinarellos, so it is not unheard of.

[lemos]

I've asked this elsewhere, but I'll ask in here anyway as well.

If you're running Di2 with Synchroshift (so, big-big will never happen), do you try to optimize the chain for the big-big anyway, or do you do it for the biggest combo Di2 will allow you?

[Calnago]

@lemos: Definitely set the chain length the normal manner. Don’t try to “shorten” it simply because you’re locked out of Big/Big.
As for “optimizing” the distance of the upper pulley to the largest cog, you’re going to do this when the chain is on the small chainring and largest cog, which you will not be locked out of, so the process will be the same either way.