Vaypor + or S sizing coming from Shimano R321

[Alexandrumarian]

I currently use a pair of R321 in 45 regular. They are too long (at least 5mm too long) and too narrow. Feet are 277 and 274 long by 108mm wide. Shimano gives 285mm for 45 but from the insole they seem to go nearer 290. On harder rides my toes tend to go numb and while I put up with it for a couple years it has turned annoying enough to look for soemthing else. I also find the shape of the last weird because of the turned inwards tip. The smaller toes are crushed while the big toe has a lot of open space (towards the bike frame)

So I am looking at Vaypor + or S. The chart indicates I would be fine on a 44.5 while the wizard sends me to 45. I would hate to end up with too much tip space again (because it often transforms into lifting heel with the upper tight, which I don't like to do) Also when the shoe is too long, the ball never sits in the right spot. On the other hand, toes bumping into the tip are a big nono. I had enough black nails from tight technical mountaineering boots in my youth....

Thanks for any tips!

[spud]

I ride the same size in both shoes (R321 & Vaypor+). The R321 has marginally more length (few mm, nothing more), width feels similar too (standard width).

[Alexandrumarian]

Thanks! Sounds like 44.5 will be right. I am surprised about the width part. Or maybe I should not be. The 321 upper splays easily beyond the sole so it doesn't really feel cramped (except for those very hard (or cold) rides after which I can't feel the toes anymore). In any case the toe marks on the insole are very clear: space outside the big toe (5mm or so) while the smaller ones are crammed together. If I put my foot over the insole on the floor, the small toes spill out by a full cm.

[Digger90]

I followed Bont' s sizing steps to the letter - and found the size suggested was bang on.

[sungod]

...So I am looking at Vaypor + or S. The chart indicates I would be fine on a 44.5 while the wizard sends me to 45. I would hate to end up with too much tip space again (because it often transforms into lifting heel with the upper tight, which I don't like to do) Also when the shoe is too long, the ball never sits in the right spot. On the other hand, toes bumping into the tip are a big nono. I had enough black nails from tight technical mountaineering boots in my youth....

the chart is supposed to be the exact shoe dimension, bont's advice is to add a few mm to foor measurement to allow for socks, maybe the wizard adds this?

when i was measuring for my vaypor s i did a few measurements at different times of day to be sure i got the maximum, then added a few mm and selected using the chart

they are fully mouldable, unless the unmoulded shoes happen to match your feet you may well find heel lift, that's ok, you then mould them to get the fit just right

[boots2000]

I wear 45 in both of those shoes.
If the 321 long for you- Go for a 44.5

[Alexandrumarian]

I just got them, 44.5 Helix

The good news is heel retention seems from another universe compared to Shimano. Almost zero slip even when full open, while on the 321 I get some slip even with the ratchet at the max.

The bad are: while the shorter foot seems race-snug-ok lentghwise (with super thin socks, no chance for thicker let alone winter) the longer one is already toe-bumping.
Worse is they don't feel wide at all. I was hoping for a swimming feel at the ball of the foot but no. It feels worse than Shimano were the upper splays and spills over the flat sole, but here it is cradled in the tub.

I can also feel the arch support pretty strongly, but I had the same with the red shimano inserts. Funky feel in the room but ok on the bike, so perhaps these would be ok too.

So I am super torn in between returning for a 45 or trying to do a molding. I know the molding only does subtle changes. I can't tell yet if I subtly or really hate them so I guess I'll wear them inside the house for a while longer....

[jlok]

get the 45. from my exp (Vaypor S, Vaypor+ 2016 and Riot+) moulding does not help length issue. a.d trust the size wizard. the suggested size may seem bigger than other brands but it's bang on actually. it has room to spare even after I replaced the insole. Maybe my foot are low volume and wide.

[Alexandrumarian]

I guess I am bang in between sizes. If I measure very close, the wizard gives 44.5. Add 1mm more, 45. I really don't expect the lentgh to increase, but if I could spread out the ball and arch areas a bit, they could work. No chance for winter socks though. Dang, i hate returns.... And what if the 45 has a sloppy heel.

[Hexsense]

And what if the 45 has a sloppy heel.

Then you heat mold and compress the heel area to your heel's shape.

[Alexandrumarian]

Hopefully I'm not beating a dead horse here, but here are pics with the insoles overlayed and then my foot. The Bont is tighter outside the big toe, which was open unused space in Shimano, but for the small ones it justs as cramped, but now cramped agaisnt hard carbon rather than the flexy upper, so it feels worse. You can see how my toes spill out. Begining to think I need a 45 wide, not just a regular!

[jlok]

I've been through this anxious moment worrying about getting a worse fit with the exchange.

In the end I found that the size wizard was right. I'd say if you are within 1mm to the next size up/wide according to the wizard, go up / wide, plus getting a quality insole. They are usually thicker than the stock one. Finally mould your shoes with the new insoles (not saying to heat them together!). End result is a pair of great fitting shoes good enough for 8-day 1100km road tour. Good luck.

[cmoi]

Shimano and Bont lenght are very close, I had 47 for both Shimano R321 and BONT Vaypor.
You have to keep in mind that the BONT innersole is thinner that the Shimano and many cyclist find it uncomfortable and replace it buy another one. Myself for instance I replace the BONT innersole buy a specialized one which is thicker that the BONT. This can motivate you to take a BONT size 45 (and not 44.5) and replace the innersole buy a thicker one for a more comfortable and more adjusted size.
I would recommend to go to a 45 to have margin for a new innersole and winter sock

[Alexandrumarian]

Pretty tricky, darn it. The 45 Shimano is definitly too big for me, with toes pushed up I can stick a finger behind the heel. Finger pressed in calipers is still more than 10mm, so they are about 3/4-1 size too big for a fitted match (say 3mm of space). 44.5 Bonts are tight with minimal space at the top. From these two the conclusion is Bonts are half size smaller than the R321 in particular and again at this particular size. No guarantee there aren't different increments at different sizes plus manufacturing margins.

Since my seller does not carry wides I decided to suck it up and just try the ones I got. I did a quick hairdryer molding which removed a few pressure spots in the arch perfectly but also made the boa lace routing housings more preeminent inside, which is a potential problem. I didn't notice width increasing.

I did a couple 1h rides, gradually incresing the power. I noticed they are funny feeling and uncomfortable if too loose. If too tight they are quickly numbing. I found an OK tightness but I barely have 2 clicks to play.

The conection to the crank and power transfer feel are just unbelivable. Every foot movement is felt in the bike. The solid arch support is excellent when leaning the bike, I can feel how pressing the low foot truly loads the crank. In comparison the r321 were like swimming in jelly.

Of course after the rides my larger foot felt pretty beat. I will ride a bit more and wait for the feet to adjust to the new sole shape and perhaps try a new molding. I can easily build a wooden spreader, somehting like this ((((======)))) with a screw to put pressure and expand the ball area.

If my feet adjust I will also order a 45 wide for long rides, or winter rides and maybe keep the 44.5 for shorter rides.

[sungod]

you can mould a few mm extra width around the midfoot area, i have done this to get normal width vaypor s wider

gloved fingers are ok, just be sure the temperature is high enough for the material to move (i would not make a spreader as it could snap something)

i use a heatgun set to 100c, it is easier/faster than oven and you can work on a particular area