Fastest tire - Vittoria Corsa Speed (open TLR)

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Multebear
Posts: 1100
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm

by Multebear

Those of you having problems mounting tubeless tires, are you using regular tire levers? Or are you using something like this one? Could you please mention which you are using?

https://www.bike24.com/p250405.html

CrankAddictsRich
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by CrankAddictsRich

TheKaiser wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:09 pm

As you point out, there is obviously some variance from tire to tire, and then as these articles explain nicely, there is also no current fixed standard for "Road Tubeless" which exacerbates things:
https://bikerumor.com/2015/01/14/why-is ... -get-here/
https://bikerumor.com/2015/01/29/why-is ... -the-road/

Since there isn't a hard and fast interface standard, in this case his 88mm rim may be on the big side of the bead seat diameter range by design, to ensure tire security, and the Vittoria may be on the tight side, for the same reason. Then, the individual example of the rim might be a on the bigger side of the manufacturers production variance, and then the Vittoria might be on the small side of the Vittoria variance, so you have the tolerances stacking up in a kind of worst case scenario. Actually, I suppose it's the 2nd worst case scenario, as the worst would be an opposite arrangement of tolerances resulting in a high speed blowoff!
This is basically what I'm thinking.... there's just some incompatibility in terms of the manufacturing tolerances. I'm fairly certain that the 88's are on the big side as even normal tires are a little harder to get over the brake track and into place.
ericoschmitt wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:22 pm
TheKaiser wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:23 am

Its a pretty well accepted fact that mounting tubless tires is likely to drop your spoke tension, due to the compressive force of the extra tight and robust tubeless bead squeezing the rim. There are a ton of threads out there discussing it, particularly in regard to light weight aluminum rims, like the Stans Alpha 340, and also many of the light aluminum mountain bike wheels. That is present to some some degree with all tubeless tires, but the tighter the fit, and the more flexible the rim, the larger the effect.
This answer and the thread made me even more worried. Got Stans 340 wheels waiting for the new frame, and a pair of Corsa open TLR in the drawer... Got GP4000's too, and first plan was using those with conti Supersonic tubes. When I saw rolling resistance test result and the claimed weight I got a pair. But they weight far more than 205g - 235~ actually. How I hate this. After adding sealant, valves, and tubeless tape (which are heavier than Rox Ultralites) they would save me 15g or less... And that's against 25mm GP4k. If using 23s, then difference is zero. So I thought "well, at least saves rolling watts, and maybe some confort". I knew the thread was thin already, but could save them for race only. Until I actually tried to fit them on the wheels, even before applying any tape, I couldn't. I will try to stretch them on a cheap and strong rim before.

And now this spoke tension thing. Maybe I should install them, pump, and then re-tension the wheels??

I also thought about those rolling watts. Because I've read about some wind tunnel test comparing tires, and the GP4000 thread pattern actually made it a bit more aero. Just can't remember how many watts that was. Corsa TLR save 8w from GP4k - but with standard butyl tubes. If using some Vredestein latex 49g tubes might save some 4 or 5w, and then those 3w left could be made from aero benefit... And GP4k last long, have good puncture protection, easy to fit.

Now I got a brand new pair and I'm wondering if I should even bother triyng to use them. I should decide it before I waste my Rox Ultralite tape. I could use some Kapton to test (cheap), but then I wouldn't be able to sell the tire pair as new if I give up...
It sounds to me like you're primarily interested in the corsa speeds as a light weight option.... and while they are light, I think you're really missing the boat on what these tires are designed for. They're a TT tire. IMO, they're not really good for general riding. I think they have a very delicate casing. Now, tubeless may give some puncture protection, I stil don't think it would offer me enough security that I'd want to take them for general riding. Some people have also commented that they don't offer very good grip in the rain.
Multebear wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:55 pm
Those of you having problems mounting tubeless tires, are you using regular tire levers? Or are you using something like this one? Could you please mention which you are using?

https://www.bike24.com/p250405.html
No.. i was just using standard tire levers.
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by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Corsa Speeds aren’t even the lightest tubeless tire. 25mm Hutchinson Fusion 5 Galactik 11Storms are 220g and they have a 23mm version that will be a few grams lighter.

Multebear
Posts: 1100
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm

by Multebear

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:10 am
Corsa Speeds aren’t even the lightest tubeless tire. 25mm Hutchinson Fusion 5 Galactik 11Storms are 220g and they have a 23mm version that will be a few grams lighter.
But they still are 2.4 watts slower compared to the Corsas in rolling resistance.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Multebear wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:39 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:10 am
Corsa Speeds aren’t even the lightest tubeless tire. 25mm Hutchinson Fusion 5 Galactik 11Storms are 220g and they have a 23mm version that will be a few grams lighter.
But they still are 2.4 watts slower compared to the Corsas in rolling resistance.
No, Jarno tested a 25mm Fusion 5 Galactik Tubeless. That tire weighed 288g and used a different tread compound.

The tire I’m talking about is the newer 25mm Fusion 5 Galactik TLR 11Storm.

TheKaiser
Posts: 525
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm

by TheKaiser

ericoschmitt wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:22 pm

And now this spoke tension thing. Maybe I should install them, pump, and then re-tension the wheels??
Re-tensioning after tire mounting has always made sense to me as a workable solution, as adequate tension when you are actually riding is what matters. I have heard a few people raise the concern that if you tension with the tire mounted then, once you removed the tire to fix a flat or replace it, you would have the tension suddenly jump up to an unsafe level.

I haven't actually taken measurements to cite, but I am inclined to think that the safety margin built into most rims/spokes/hubs is plenty high to endure this temporary jump in tension while you are replacing a tire, assuming you aren't massively overtensioning them when the tire is mounted. In addition, the dynamic increase in spoke tension that wheels experience when pedaling, cornering, and hitting bumps is likely to be far greater than the effect of having a tire mounted vs. unmounted.

C36
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

TheKaiser wrote:
alcatraz wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:47 am
Corsa speeds don't currently mate well with your rims.

If the bead diameter varies slightly (which you've proven by testing different year corsa speeds) then it might vary from tire to tire or depending on which side of the tire you are using.

Perhaps it's your rim that is larger on one side than the other. Then you have to find the most relaxed bead among your corsas to make it fit that side.

Again it's worth testing turning the tire around or a second tire, if you are interested in getting the corsas working again.
As you point out, there is obviously some variance from tire to tire, and then as these articles explain nicely, there is also no current fixed standard for "Road Tubeless" which exacerbates things!
That’s exactly why Mavic created the open standard of road UST, 90% of wheels and tires manufacturer either have too wide tolerances or a design outside the existing norm. You end up with some combination that fit (wide with wide) or with problems (difficult to mount, to clip, to drop spike tension...).

http://engineerstalk.mavic.com/en/road- ... safe-fast/

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jhalmar
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Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:11 am

by jhalmar

TobinHatesYou wrote:Corsa Speeds aren’t even the lightest tubeless tire. 25mm Hutchinson Fusion 5 Galactik 11Storms are 220g and they have a 23mm version that will be a few grams lighter.
Hutchinson webpage says that 25mm is 240g (+-7%) and I just weighted two 25mm Corsa Speeds 228g and 230g. It seems that the Corsa Speed might be indeed lighter if you don’t get the lightest sample of Hutchinson?

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

jhalmar wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:00 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:Corsa Speeds aren’t even the lightest tubeless tire. 25mm Hutchinson Fusion 5 Galactik 11Storms are 220g and they have a 23mm version that will be a few grams lighter.
Hutchinson webpage says that 25mm is 240g (+-7%) and I just weighted two 25mm Corsa Speeds 228g and 230g. It seems that the Corsa Speed might be indeed lighter if you don’t get the lightest sample of Hutchinson?
We’ve weighed several on these boards. Mine are all 220g or lighter. dvq’s were around 215g or something like that. Another forum member’s weighed his around 220g as well.

zefs
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:40 pm

by zefs

Same here, mine weighted less than 220g.

jhalmar
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:11 am

by jhalmar

^^ & ^ Thanks. For me it seems pretty stupid that manufacturer gives heavier weights than the real weight because all of the buyers are not following this forum

ericoschmitt
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:47 pm

by ericoschmitt

jhalmar wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:49 am
^^ & ^ Thanks. For me it seems pretty stupid that manufacturer gives heavier weights than the real weight because all of the buyers are not following this forum Image
Like me, who got Vittoria Corsa Pro open TLR ones. (229 and 234g)
I also got a pair of Hutchingson Fusion 5 Galatik 25mm (older version as i see now), at 289.9g and 290.0g. Got them to use as rear tire and/or training tire, on aero wheels where I don't care too much about weight (Zipp Clincher 60).

I'm not spending on tubeless tires anytime soon since these are still good for TT and flat races, so I'll use them.
I can ww on clincher tires for the other Stans/BHS-UL wheels, such as Tufo Calibra Lite or supersonic/GP-TT or whatever. I'm slim anyway, punctures are usually not a problem.

We should not forget that all rolling resistance tests in that website are made with 100g butyl tubes, and using 70g latex drops 1.5 to 2.5 watts. Also in another test, latex tubes gave less rolling resistance than tubeless setup on the same tire (just a tiny bit). If you go beyond and use Vredestein 49g latex inner tubes, then that possibily is faster then running Vittoria Corsa Pro openTLR tubeless! And also makes GP-TT just as fast. I just wish that guy tested these tubes and Supersonics with GP-TT. Also wish he tested Tufo Calibra Lite since they probably roll very fast.

Not to mention Eclipse Inner tubes at 29g, should make tires even faster. BTW I'm sorting materials to make a homemade version of that. Get an old valve, take all ruber off, and seal some plastic around it with epoxy resin. Then find the right glue for the kind of plastic of choice, some patience and work... Should do it. I'll try to build that the next week and see if it works. I've weighted some plastic samples and I think it's possible to make it under 29g.

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Not only were your Galactiks an older incarnation, they were the "tubeless" version instead of the "tubeless-ready" version. I really want Jarno to test the new TLR Galactiks since they're 65-70g lighter than the TL he tested, with an improved tire compound too. They will probably end up the second fastest or fastest tire on his list.

If we were really min-maxing, we could inject sealant for the initial seal, then suck out the excess through the valve with a syringe, but that's splitting hairs and defeats one of the major benefits of running tubeless.

CrankAddictsRich
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by CrankAddictsRich

ericoschmitt wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:26 pm
jhalmar wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:49 am
^^ & ^ Thanks. For me it seems pretty stupid that manufacturer gives heavier weights than the real weight because all of the buyers are not following this forum Image
Like me, who got Vittoria Corsa Pro open TLR ones. (229 and 234g)
I also got a pair of Hutchingson Fusion 5 Galatik 25mm (older version as i see now), at 289.9g and 290.0g. Got them to use as rear tire and/or training tire, on aero wheels where I don't care too much about weight (Zipp Clincher 60).

I'm not spending on tubeless tires anytime soon since these are still good for TT and flat races, so I'll use them.
I can ww on clincher tires for the other Stans/BHS-UL wheels, such as Tufo Calibra Lite or supersonic/GP-TT or whatever. I'm slim anyway, punctures are usually not a problem.

We should not forget that all rolling resistance tests in that website are made with 100g butyl tubes, and using 70g latex drops 1.5 to 2.5 watts. Also in another test, latex tubes gave less rolling resistance than tubeless setup on the same tire (just a tiny bit). If you go beyond and use Vredestein 49g latex inner tubes, then that possibily is faster then running Vittoria Corsa Pro openTLR tubeless! And also makes GP-TT just as fast. I just wish that guy tested these tubes and Supersonics with GP-TT. Also wish he tested Tufo Calibra Lite since they probably roll very fast.

Not to mention Eclipse Inner tubes at 29g, should make tires even faster. BTW I'm sorting materials to make a homemade version of that. Get an old valve, take all ruber off, and seal some plastic around it with epoxy resin. Then find the right glue for the kind of plastic of choice, some patience and work... Should do it. I'll try to build that the next week and see if it works. I've weighted some plastic samples and I think it's possible to make it under 29g.
I see you making reference to lighter and lighter inner tubes, inssisting that those would in effect be faster and faster. Is there some study that shows that the weight of the inner tube has an effect on the rolling resistance. I have always been under the impression that latex tubes were faster than butyl tubes because of the material, not strictly because they were lighter... and I assume that lighter latex tubes wouldn't necessarily be any faster because the materal on material contact inside the tire is the same, but maybe I'm making some assumptions that aren't true.
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ericoschmitt
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:47 pm

by ericoschmitt

CrankAddictsRich wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:58 pm

I see you making reference to lighter and lighter inner tubes, inssisting that those would in effect be faster and faster. Is there some study that shows that the weight of the inner tube has an effect on the rolling resistance. I have always been under the impression that latex tubes were faster than butyl tubes because of the material, not strictly because they were lighter... and I assume that lighter latex tubes wouldn't necessarily be any faster because the materal on material contact inside the tire is the same, but maybe I'm making some assumptions that aren't true.
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.co ... s-clincher

I guess both things count. Latex is more flexible and rolls better, and being lighter also makes a difference (80g butyl tubes vs 100g from the same brand)
I'm just not sure where do they balance, for example, 55g butyl tube might roll the same as 70g latex tube?

This guy hasn't tested Supersonic 55g butyl or Vredestein 49 latex or 29g plastic(PVC?) eclipse. But from what he has already tested, the two lightest ones might be faster than any tubeless setup. Even the same Corsa Open TLR tire might be faster if paired with ultra-light tubes instead of tubeless, as his results suggest.

by Weenie


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